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Teach me the basics of OSS Rambo-ing.

Discussion in 'ALEPH' started by Shoitaan, Jan 20, 2019.

  1. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    My mistake then. Then mk12 mk5 serves to be a pretty model in your collection.

    Yeah, her range is the only thing that is bad on her. Other than that, she is fantastic all around

    Arjuna is good enough on the active.

    Her bots are very good, especially if you get to put someone in the situation of getting shot by her AND the bot at the same time. ESPECIALLY if you give Supportware to the bod, giving his template Shock + E/M.

    But yes, she is squishy. But it is more due to you being spoiled by ALEPH always having virtual 2 wounds than anything else.
     
  2. Káosz Brigodéros

    Káosz Brigodéros Vanguard, Inc.

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    One more vote for the Garuda. AD Combat Jump with a 6-4 MOV means this wobot will shoot your enemies in the back by the truckload! Mimetism is a nice tweak, and the BS loadout is relatively inexpensive giving you a pretty good chance winning FtF rolls thanks to being in the +6 range band and most likely ignoring cover due to proper positioning of your own trooper. Effective against not only cheerleaders but also the big guys: AP rounds for the heavy armour guys, template for the fireteam! The only draw-back is the lack of Supressive Fire, but I would not expect this guy to exist long anyway after wreaking havoc in the enemy DZ. The wobot will slaughter and will do it in a very order-effective way due to arriving instantly where you want - most likely in the enemy DZ. Then the wobot will disintegrate.
    When going full house, I would waste 2 points investing in a proper high-range weapon in the HMG. For a measly 2 points you get an un-outrangable (is that a word?) active turn drop trooper who can do some really serious ass-kicking cross the table. Just spare an order to put this guy in SF after the mass killing.
    Although I like Dart, she will consume your order pool like Oh, my God! What she does up close is amazing but she is the secound most order-hungry unit in the whole game! (Not even close to Mirage-5, not even close!)
    We are here to help.
     
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  3. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    @Deathbird - let me know how you go with the Rudras Haris. In the instances I used it, I enjoyed having the 6-4 climbing plus combo unhindered. Interested to know if the mobility is worth sacrificing for extra fire power.

    @Wyrmnax - I spent some time on the infinity wiki trying to figure out if what you said is correct about MM2 giving shock to e/marats... what the hell kind of rules fuckery is this? XD Some strong electricity that...
    I guess its the same logic as MM2 with a breaker combi forcing 2 different rolls with the Haqq unit. I forget the name. Zhayden or whatever is in Red Veil.

    @Káosz Brigodéros, thanks for the advice. Do you find the Garuda HMG surviving long? Feels like a risky platform to be investing 1/3 of my SWC on. I love the idea of the BS though but just somewhat scared of the longevity of the deep striking HMG. At least with the Dakini I'll have a mechanic nearby.
     
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  4. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I'm also interested in the rudras haris thing. I prefer the lone rudras for its mobility.

    For the e/marats things, yes it's the same thing. Shock means ARM roll while the weapon is BTS roll. It's quite a strange and unintuitive rule to say the least.

    As for garudas, i'm not sure the HMG is the best profile because of it's range. Since it's an AD, we can expect it to be closer to the enemy, so BSG/combi/spitfire are probably better choices.
    The best feature of AD is the ability to be at the best position for you - and the worst for the opponent. You can expect to shoot an opponent in his rear side, and without him having cover. So you don't really need powerful SWC weapons to perform really well. Keep your SWC for your dakinis, and give it a try with bsg or combi garudas :)
     
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  5. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Yep.

    E/M ammo is not non-lethal. So marksmanship gives it shock.

    E/M is not non-lethal because of some artifact from the fact that it was lethal to a specific sub-faction within infinity in N2...

    So I am pretty confident that it is not RAI, but for all effects and purposes it *is* RAW. And as such, that is how it needs to be played.

    Also - makes Arjuna even more threathening. Her bots can carry what is basically N2 plasma Direct Template Weapons...
     
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  6. Arlic

    Arlic Active Member

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    But they can "just" inflict one wound, right?
     
  7. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    One wound plus E/M, meaning what has only one wound is screwed (either unconscious or isolated), what has several wounds is screwed too (IMM + isolated)
     
  8. Káosz Brigodéros

    Káosz Brigodéros Vanguard, Inc.

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    You're welcome!
    Let's make it clear: I think the best loadout for the Garuda is the BS one. It's cheap enough to sacrifice and will do the close quarter shooting. This tactic is fairly order-intensive, and will probably result in the loss of the Garuda but will put your opponent in a very difficult position due to losses accrued.
    Fielding a Spitfire/HMG Garuda is a whole different thing. As you mentioned, you are spending 1/4 of your SWC on this trooper, hence you just can't afford losing this guy easily. And for this high price (1.5SWC) I would want a proper high-range weapon instead of the Spitfire. I admit I have a soft spot when it comes to HMGs - I consider this beauty the best weapon in the game. Indeed the Spitfire is better fit for close-up fighting, but I firmly believe that's not how you are supposed to use this guy. Instead of a rambo unit (skulking around in the enemy backfield shooting guys up point blanc) you drop this guy in a spot where he can do long-range firefighting instead, and you can send reinforcements upfields to protect him during your reactive turn. The huge advantage of this guy (versus a standard HMG camping in your DZ) is the unforeseeable deployment place granting you attack vectors your opponent is unable to cover properly.
    The longevity of the HMG/Spitfire Garuda IS a problem for me. (That's the reason I prefer the BS loadout.) Keeping this guy alive is not a mission impossible, because he has already done a killing spree himself and after the first turn (when both sides take casualities en masse) your opponent's resources (troopers&orders) are seriously depleted (like your own), hence dislodging a HMG in SF with mimetism and preferably in cover is no easy task. Not impossible, but expensive enough to put your opponent in a bad position.
    Wrap-up: I prefer the BS because I don't like the idea of spending 1.5SWC on a drop troop, but if I do spend the SWC, I want a proper long-range weapon in the HMG instead of a Spitfire that can be outranged by a HMG.
    We are here to help.
     
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  9. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    While i too prefer the BSG garuda over the SWC ones, i see 2 problems in what you are saying.

    The first problem is: the HMG is not a better weapon than the spitfire. They have different purpose. The HMG may have a better range (and damage) than the spitfire, but it also have a far worse short range. The HMG is not suit to be on a mobile gunfighter able to deploy in the enemy board, because of that 0-40 bad range. Since the garuda does not have superjump, it has to get around the sceneries. It's quite often that you have to shoot under 40cm when doing so. With the spitfire, it is easy to shoot in the 20-40 cm, and even if you have to shoot in the 0-20, it's not that bad. The HMG would be only worth if you can have a long range lateral firelane, without ARO (or else your garuda would have been shot on landing). It can happens and can be a big surprise for the opponent, but i find it too expensive for such a special case.

    The second problem is: if you want to take a mobile shooter with a long range SWC weapon, since this is OSS, you have 2 choices that are each far better than the HMG garuda. The first is the dakini HMG/MSR, because it is cheaper, nearly as strong, as mobile (once the garuda landed, that is), and can link for an extra power. Especially since your garuda is unlikely to have any form of hacking support, contrary to the dakini. The second choice is the rudras, which is indeed more expensive than the garuda, but more sturdy, carry it's own repeater, and more mobile. And has template weapons.

    EDIT:
    I would like to add a thing about SWC garudas. I've used the spitfire several times already, with mixed results (mostly because of some mistakes from my side). A B4 BS12 heavy weapon coming from the rear of your enemy is nothing to laugh at. It may be because the opponent did a mistake in his deployment or because you were able to clean a safe path for the AD to come, but in any case, the opponent is in big trouble. But one should not expect it to happens in each game, and in that regard, i find the SWC garudas to be a bit expensive for that.
    On the other hands, while i'm saying that 1.5 SWC 30 pts garuda is expensive, one of my favorite attack piece in vanilla is Mk.12 Diomedes, who is a 0 SWC 43 pts AD4. So if you have SWC to spare, why not.
     
    #29 Nenyx, Jan 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2019
  10. regelridderen

    regelridderen Dismember

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    And that works for Ariadna with plenty cheap throwaway skirmishers. For Aleph with a minimum points @27, it is just too inefficient, risking to deploy 10% by chance.
     
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  11. BarbeChenue

    BarbeChenue Well-Known Member

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    Never played OSSSS specifically, but here's a list I'm interested in trying:

    16 O Daki Dart KHD Proxies Etc.
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────
    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8
    DEVA (Multispectral Visor L2) Spitfire, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (1 | 33)
    CSU Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 11)
    DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21)
    DAKINI Tacbot MULTI Sniper Rifle / Electric Pulse. (1.5 | 21)
    DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    PROBOT (Minesweeper, Repeater) Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    DART Submachine Gun, Viral Tactical Bow, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Shock CC Weapon, Knife. (0 | 34)
    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]7 [​IMG]1
    DEVA Lieutenant (Sensor) Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    SHUKRA (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    NAGA Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Antipersonnel Mines / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    PROXY Mk.2 Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    PROXY Mk.1 Engineer Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    WARCOR (Aerocam) Flash Pulse / Stun Pistol, Knife. (0 | 3)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    4 SWC | 300 Points
    Open in Infinity Army

    I have no idea how to fit "more Dakka" yet retain the number of orders. I feel I need a KHD, Assault Hacker, and Sensor Lt, plus CoC/Counterintelligence just because, but maybe I'm wrong?

    I play mostly PanOceania (all) and Steel Phalanx.
     
  12. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    ... you have so many Dakinis and yet no Hacker to upgrade them.
     
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  13. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    @BarbeChenue
    Your list is interesting. I'm keen to hear how it goes. I don't think you necessarily NEED all the things you mentioned but I personally like to try to have 2 different types of hacking devices in my OSS lists. NCA lists is different because I'M NOT GOING TO WIN THOSE ROLLS ANYWAY XD
    As @Nemo No Name alluded though, I'd try to fit in a normal hacker. I've run Dakini teams without a hacker thinking it'd be fine. It was not.
    You REALLY feel that BS11 when you can't ignore the +3 for cover. Mileage of shock depends on who you're facing of course.

    If the moons align and we dont' end up cancelling again, I'll be having a game of Frontline via TTS this weekend. This is the list I'm trying:

    Somewhat Aggressive
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    GROUP 1[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]8
    ASURA Lieutenant L2 Hacker (Hacking Device Plus UPGRADE: Redrum) MULTI Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, AP CCW. (0.5 | 78)
    SHUKRA (Chain of Command) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 25)
    LAMEDH Rebot Flash Pulse, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 8)
    YADU (NCO) HMG / Heavy Pistol, Knife. (2 | 41)
    GARUDA Tacbot Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 21)
    PROXY Mk.2 Hacker (Assault Hacking Device) Boarding Shotgun, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 21)
    PROXY Mk.1 Engineer Combi Rifle, Nanopulser, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    PROXY Mk.5 (Forward Observer) 2 Submachine Guns, Nanopulser, E/M Grenades / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 10)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    NETROD . (0 | 4)
    YUDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)

    GROUP 2[​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]5
    DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    DAKINI Tacbot HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 21)
    DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    DAKINI Tacbot Combi Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 13)
    CSU (Specialist Operative) Breaker Combi Rifle, Nanopulser / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 15)

    4 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army


    Most of the same thinking points as my last offering with a couple of exceptions. I've included the Garuda because I was mostly swayed by all your experiences but the role AD troops were playing in Daboarders tournament experiences were very interesting. Makes me think I don't think I use AD enough...
    I want to try to drop the Garuda somewhere turn 1 (most so I have the order on the table quickly). Doesn't even need to take out a high value target. Just rob them of as many orders as possible and hopefully sit safe so I can use the order in following turns.

    Shukra there for backfield defence and finally keeping my army functional after the Asura goes down. Yadu HMG there to make the most of NCO+LT2. ARM6 in cover is good enough for me to play her a little aggressively to open up some fire lanes. It'll be my first time using a Yadu so we'll see how it goes.

    Proxy Mk 5 to deliver the Xenotech.

    Not much else to explain. I hope the decision to have the 5 regular orders for the FT in a separate group doesn't come back to me as a bad decision...
    Also wondering if I should swap out the Yudbot for a warcor given my Engineer only needs to look after the FT which should be largely stationary for most of the game provided things go well.

    My opponent will be playing Tunguska. There will be some 1-3 hackers (1 interventor and some mix of either Mary and/or Spectres), definitely 1 Kriza and I think he's choosing between Zondnautica, Meteor or Tsyklon. Beyond that I think it'll be a Grenzer+Securitate fireteam. It'll be interesting. I don't want to tailor my list to face him. I want a list that'll be good for something like frontline, firefight etc. But I think he'll have an advantage over me with his repeaters and the MSV1 Grenzer ML that I'm pretty sure he's bringing again XD

    Hope you guys get a good weekend of games going.
     
    #33 Shoitaan, Jan 31, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
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  14. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    So you're taking Yadu NCO because you plan to have Asura sitting pretty doing nothing?

    There is always something to use those Lt orders on Asura herself. If nothing else, Marksmanship on some bot and then Suppression.

    Do yourself favour, drop that garbage and get something good. You can exchange her for Rudra Red Fury, or Dakini MULTI Sniper (put in link to ARO, then when it dies you reform into full 5) + 20 more points to spend on goodies, or an infiltrator + more point for another 8 point bot or upgrading one of the Dakinis to MULTI Sniper.

    Also, consider this; if you plan to have Dakinis be defensive, why not use MULTI Sniper instead of HMG?

    Finally, Breaker Combi Rifle is nice, but if you downgrade to Boarding Shotgun you can upgrade 2 Dakinis to Paramedics. Sure, you lose Breaker Combi, but you get a better close-in-defence with the Boarding Shotgun, and Dakinis make a much better specialist than CSU (better move, Mimetism, better WIP).
     
  15. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Hahaha you really have strong feelings about those Yadu don't you? XD
    My logic is this: I'm not taking Yadu, I'm taking the combination of Yadu NCO HMG + Asura LT2
    I still want to use the Asura as an aggressive piece when the situation calls for it - but mostly later in the game. Earlier game I want to make a push to control the midfield (and possibly beyond) with firepower. SO given I'm keen to take the Asura, taking the Yadu NCO kind of makes sense, particularly as she's packing a HMG. The Yadu gets to eat the (free) extra orders (which may normally be wasted), wreaking some mild havoc and if I lose her, no big deal. The Asura will be moving up later anyway.
    Plus I really want to try the Yadu out for the first time anyway. If she under-performs, I agree with you and will swap her out for the Rudras which has proven itself to me several items before.

    Good call about the BS on the CSU. That's my normal choice but I thought I'd take the breaker for some mid-range aggression but that was before I made changes to the list and added the Yadu and the Garuda. It no longer makes sense to have that in there so I'll swap out the breaker as you suggested. Thanks.

    On the subject of Multisniper vs HMG though, please have my patience on this subject as you walk me through this. I've been thinking about this topic for a couple of weeks now in the echo chamber of my head so this is ugly. Fueling my thoughts are peoples preferences for Druze Sniper vs HMG and the notorious havoc of the Kamau MSR instead of the HMG. Lets ignore the Kamau because it gets MSV which changes the equations and get on with my rambling:

    I literally never take snipers. Not since my first few games of Infinity. I ended up forming the opinion that given my shitty luck, better to hedge bets and throw more dice at a problem. Hence, I always take HMG over MSR. With the exception of BOlt link teams where I talk ML and Spitfire but never the MSR. ML will at least give you 3 damage rolls per hit. I guess technically the MSR can give you 2 rolls per hit? Not sure I thought hard enough about that. But anyway...
    More dice = better odds was my motto.

    So then I read some writeups in the Druze forums by Gregg that talked about how the MSR was the better option over HMG as its more useful for more situations or something to that effect. Given the hardest target I've thus far faced (ignoring the Squalo or Ajax) has been a Kriza Borac, I tried using the math calculator against a Kriza. Druze have FAT which seems to make the difference and make the difference between HMG and MSR close. HMG still has better odds but given the difference wasn't that huge, I guess I can see why having the longer "good band" would be great.

    With Dakini though the difference between MSR and HMG was much larger. I don't remember the numbers and I don't think they exceeded 10% chance to wound but it was noticably larger. In the active turn, the HMG also lets me spread my burst more 'safely' contesting more F2F rolls if I'm in an unfavourable situation. But many people still love the MSR. What is it that I don't understand about this weapon?

    Sorry for the ramble but its been bothering me for weeks. I feel like everyone can see something overwhelmingly clearly but I can't :/
    Why is it better?
     
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  16. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Okay, first to get done with Yadu: try it if you will but you misunderstood my point. I'm not even discussing Yadu per-se, just the NCO part. You have Dakinis. Even if you do not advance with Asura first turn, she will still put on Marksmanship on those Dakinis or putting Cybermask on herself, and either repositioning or going into suppressive fire. at the minimum. Hence, in majority of games you will gain nothing with NCO.

    Now, onto Dakini MULTI Sniper. Here's the thing: if it is a defensive link, you only have B2 anyway. And MULTI Sniper comes with better rangebands and significantly better ammo.
    So if you plan to take your Dakini link and attack with it, HMG is better. But for ARO duties, MULTI Sniper is better.
    And here's another point; if you don't take Yadu NCO, you have points not to upgrade, but to get a whole additional Dakini with MULTI sniper. You start the game with MULTI Sniper linked; once its your turn, you reform with HMG and go hunting. See what I mean?

    And Dakini MULTI Sniper, upgraded with Marksmanship and thanks to Mimetism, can be a pretty decent piece by itself if you can catch enemy ARO pieces outside their good range. I especially love catching Heavy Rocket Launchers, which have HMG rangebands, outside 80cm.
     
    #36 Nemo No Name, Jan 31, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  17. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Ok. All that makes sense. I can't believe the other uses of the lt2 orders didn't occur to me before. I think it's because this is my first time using the Asura outside of a haris so the option was never available... I'm still committed to the Yadu for Fridays game so I can finally try it. But I agree with you that the rudras is a better fit for this list. If for no other reason than to extend my hacking range.

    Thanks for the advice.
     
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  18. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    No problem.

    Also, remember that Cybermask and Assisted Fire are both Supportware, so you cannot have both active at the same time.
     
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  19. Shoitaan

    Shoitaan Well-Known Member

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    Good tip. Definitely would have missed that. Now I guess I need to decide if I burn an order for assisted jump or just roll the dice...
    Given his interventor will definitely hack transport... XD
     
  20. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Or just walk the Garuda in? :)
     
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