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Tao of Tunguska

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by natetehaggresar, Feb 20, 2019.

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  1. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    they are DUO, not G:Synch. If you want you can leave the ABH sniper in your DZ* on ARO duty, and his regular order is pooled. And have Miranda move out alone, it is not like moving in duo really help much (although I always take ABH red fury + miranda BSg so they can cover each other range).

    *but if you make a good roll you might bring him along if he's not in a DZ tower.
     
  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    The ABH sniper is also surprisingly effective at CQB with his brace of Breaker pistols, I'd probably take him with the Combi Miranda so all range bands are covered.
     
  3. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    I think you missed EVO ability of coordinated hacking (like using cybermask on your multiple hackers). Depends on your list, as usual for EVO, it all depends on your list.
     
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  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The ABH sniper is a really nice profile. Gives you that long range ftf capability but with a low SWC. Miranda is nice too, I feel like at some point I'd like to make them work? Especially as I have the old ITS Bounty Hunter Sniper mini.
     
  5. helsbecter

    helsbecter Ultrademocratic subSenator, #dominion Module

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    I feel like Miranda / ABH sniper can't be bad. 24 points for a combi and ODD is perfectly competitive with something like a Myrmidon, and the sniper rifle is a pretty points efficient weapon. If your group was Securitate link / ABH team / Kriza, flash pulse/baggage it would be pretty solid.
     
  6. SirGrumpyPants

    SirGrumpyPants A little grumpy

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    Reading about Tunguska has me yearning for Cyberpunk bad-assery and sick robots... which makes my space doggos sad :(

    I have been considering running some proxy lists to wet my whistle, but I'm finding it really hard to put together TJC lists - especially after coming from the land of everyone being cheap as hell. Also, the lack of CoC scares me.
     
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  7. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    Thanks for the feedback, updated the ABH sniper rifle and EVO entries.

    @SirGrumpyPants don't let lack of CoC intimidate you too much. LT hunting has an opportunity cost, if your opponent spends 5+ orders trying to kill your LT, while not achieving much of anything else, did they gain a lot? Maybe? The goal is to deploy in a manner that the opportunity cost is too high to make LT hunting attractive. This is accomplished by
    1. Including multiple possible LT profiles
    2. Placing obvious LTs in locations that are hard to access, on top of buildings with parapets are a good place to look (unless playing against explode LX), inside buildings are good locations too.
    3. Over potential LTs with aros and/or other obstacles such as mines, repeaters, koalas, or even just helper bots for body blocks.

    Nomads have been competitive forever without CoC, its nice to have, but its certainly not necissary. Learning to play without it will probably make you a better player overall.
     
  8. Ignovus

    Ignovus Agent of the Trinomial
    Warcor

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    Good read Nate. One thing that I noticed that didn't get a mention was the Kriza/Hollow Men Duo option. Since Kriza gains nothing from a Haris (aside from +1B in ARO), and Duo-ing two Krizas is on the ridiculous side of expensive (and pointless), this is a somewhat cheaper option that actually brings a lot of utility to the table.

    Kriza HMG + Hollow Man Assault Hacker is the one that shines most to me - letting you drag a specialist along with Kriza while he goes on a spree adds some efficiency, The Hollow Man's Tinbot will also affect the Kriza while they're duo'd, plus the Hollow Man has his Chain Colt and Combi to cover different range bands from his partner. And when the Hollow Man is in position and the Kriza wants to drop into Supp Fire to prepare for the reactive turn, breaking the link doesn't really hurt anything.

    Not something I'll use all the time, but it's another interesting tool for the toolbox.
     
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  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I like the Boarding Shotgun specialist myself for that role, but same principle yeah. The Kriza does the shooting at long range, the Hollow Man does the CQB and objectives.
     
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  10. Civilized Barbarian

    Civilized Barbarian Praxis' Lead R&D Janitor

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    Other good Kriza/HM duos:

    Shotgun: "Cheap" specialist, warband protection, and the best way to dig enemies out of corners that Kriza needs to walk past.

    Multirifle: Range band pairs well with HMG Kriza, 0 SWC, a strong midfield gunfighter in it's own right, but most of all that pitcher. A superjumping pitcher up a flank or in the midfield will ensure that no hackable target is safe.
     
  11. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    Very nice read, thank you a lot. I am eager to play Tungsuka as my second Nomad Sektor but at the moment I am busy with OSS (uh the arch enemy) and IA. May I point out that there is no entrance for the Meteor Zond? Its the only regular AD Troop in TJC and brings a toolbox to the table with a high SWC cost. And one more point for the zondbots: They are very good minefield clearers ;.-)
     
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  12. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    +1 on good high level take.

    I think there's a useful discussion that's missing on how to mitigate Tunguska's core weakness: lack of disposable speed bumps.

    This is one of the main roles of Puppets in a list that ends up going second: 6 wounds of solid AROs that you can reliably use to blunt an enemy alpha strike.
     
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  13. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Generally I find that if i have the bots the puppet master ends up in a pool of her own blood thanks to either an AD piece, and impersonator or some kind of spec. fire. lunokhods+salyut, bounty hunters, hecklers, and zondmates excel in the role of warband speed bumps. However from my experience TJC works better when you identify a few key pieces in your opponents list that are going to cause you issues and hit them hard, essentially "de-fanging" them and allowing you to play your game on your terms. Or force feeding them something big and scary like hollow men or the kriza as a distraction while you do other things in the background.

    Also on the concept of disposable in this game, I find that a lot of people tend to subscribe to the thinking of cheaper = more disposable, lately I've been finding this untrue. As once you hit the table points paid tends to mean little until final scoring, due to the actual position, immediate impact, and the opportunity cost of using the piece in the moment. Sometimes that 6 point morlock is a disposable shit kicker you don't care about, other times it may be the crucial piece in your army, or Mary may be the key to a certain scenario, other times she's Bait to draw out hidden enemy hackers (I may have also used some TAGs in this role too).
    TL;DR I don't think the lack of disposable stuff is a huge issue its more that we should treat things we normally wouldn't as disposable.
     
  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You can't "defang" a list going second. Baiting the AD for a Puppetmaster kill (which should be covered by defensive pieces) isn't an awful use, when the purpose of the Puppets in your list (going second) is to contain an Alpha strike.

    I agree with your principle on "what can be considered disposable". My point is more "you need something that you can afford to lose and can delay your opponent": Tunguska has a dearth of options. Quite often it ends with 1-2 very strong AROs, 1-2 Hecklers and very little providing a second layer (which, if you compare Varuna is what the Helots do superlatively). Lack of FO Securitate removes one of the classic options.

    Puppets are an option to cover this gap if you're stuck going second. Going first they can be used exactly as described to defang the enemy. I'm agree with the premise that Tunguska wants to play aggressively, but you need an option for when you fail the Lt roll.

    Context for this thinking was an LI Hollowman list vs a 20 order Tohaa smoke heavy list. This list was the outcome of the conversation (credit to @RobertShepherd):

    [​IMG] Jurisdictional Command of Tunguska
    ──────────────────────────────────────────────────

    [​IMG]10
    [​IMG] PUPPET MASTERS Submachine Gun / PistolKnife. (0 | 12)
    [​IMG] PUPPETBOT (Marksmanship L1) AP Marksman Rifle / Electric Pulse. (0 | 14)
    [​IMG] PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11)
    [​IMG] PUPPETBOT (Forward Observer) Boarding Shotgun / Electric Pulse. (0 | 11)
    [​IMG] INTERVENTOR Hacker Lieutenant (Hacking Device Plus) Combi Rifle / Pistol, Knife. (0.5 | 25)
    [​IMG] HOLLOW MEN Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35)
    [​IMG] HOLLOW MEN Missile Launcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (2 | 35)
    [​IMG] HOLLOW MEN (Specialist Operative) Boarding Shotgun / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 30)
    [​IMG] HOLLOW MEN MULTI Rifle + Pitcher, Chain-colt / Breaker Pistol, Knife. (0 | 35)
    [​IMG] STEMPLER ZOND FTO (Super-Jump) Combi Rifle, Sniffer / Electric Pulse. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] CLOCKMAKER Combi Rifle, D-Charges / Pistol, Knife. (0 | 18)
    [​IMG] ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] ZONDBOT Electric Pulse. (0 | 3)
    [​IMG] REAKTION ZOND HMG / Electric Pulse. (1 | 26)
    [​IMG] HECKLER Hacker (Killer Hacking Device) Combi Rifle, Cybermines / Assault Pistol, Knife. (0 | 24)

    5.5 SWC | 300 Points

    Open in Infinity Army
     
  15. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Backlogged Painter

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    @Tourniquet has the same general opinion I do regarding cheap chaff.

    You also need to think about opportunity cost. I am such a fan of hecklers with emarats because they're cheapish and they can stop any threat cold with their gun.

    Jammers are good area denial of you can bog your opponent down in terrain and force lots of resets. But they're pretty poor at actually isolating models, WiP 13 ftf and damage 13 can fail alot especially if your opponent has higher wip and/BTS

    The emarat halving BTS makes a big difference against many opponents, imm 2 on some targets is icing. You also still have the perk that dtws auto hit except against successful dodges.

    Emarats or zappers are tools you use to just shut down a Rambo before they inflict more pain.

    You still have a number nomad tools at your disposal, just not easy button Morlocks/jags.
    Lunkoholds/koalas
    Puppeteer mine layer
    Transducer zonds
    Warcor
    Linked boarding shotguns wearing repeaters
    Chain colts on your hi to trade hits
    Heckler jammer or emarat (in different ways)
    Dismounted zond bikes

    I eventually plan to address a lot more tactics, but writing takes a lot of time....
     
  16. Ugin

    Ugin HECKLE

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    One thing, I think the stempler in Persi+Raoul haris is not FTO version. It says "Perseus FTO + Raoul FTO + Stempler Zond." IDK why, but it is not mentioning FTO.
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I agree, there's a lot of tools there if you think about them in the right way. I'm not actually saying that you need 'cheap' things. I'm saying you need to consider what in your list is there that's disposable because it's not necessarily as obvious as other Nomad factions (for instance Zero Minelayers I view as disposable and consequently expect to lose their order, I get more benefit out of forcing my opponent to spend ~ 3 orders clearing them out than I do from adding those orders to my pool).

    Puppets work well for this (if you can protect the Master) particularly as they also provide an attack option if going first.

    I don't think Jammers are actually that good on their own: most of the great alpha strikers have Stealth. This is where Helots are extremely good is that they layer BS Attacks with Jammers.
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    That's because it's the Woody Harrelson Haris (it can't jump). It's non-jumpy bot + non-jumpy Percy + non-AD Raoul.
     
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  19. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    good call. I always thought the fireteam FTO option was meant to be used in fireteams.

    Anyway... elsewhere you can have a 1 Hollow Man + 1 Kriza Borac special Duo. You can use either the exactly named Kriza Borac from the bottom two option, or use any other named version like the Kriza Borac (360 Visor).

    What I mean is that Stempler Zond by itself with nothing else added means any loadout of that trooper. (whereas in HM+Stempler, because it calls for the FTO loadout, can only be made with the FTO loadout).
     
  20. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's a formatting question:

    Raoul FTO and Raoul are different.

    Kriza Borac (360) and Kriza Borac are the same.

    The (<skill / equipment>) doesn't change what the profile is but adding words outside of (X) does.
     
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