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TAGs get Tactical Awarness

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Marduck, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    What can I say. I've never had any models in any game I've played in the last 30 years get "invalidated". Maybe I'm not "adventurous" enough to think outside the cubical polyhedron. Maybe it's because I just didn't like enough of the models from those factions. I'm also not a "one game or nothing" person. There's too many shinies out there to limit yourself to one game (and there'll always be new shinies). Why eat tofu at an all you can eat buffet? Sure, you may like tofu (why, I cannot fathom, but you do you. More bacon for me.)

    I get models because I like the look of those models, not because I identify with their faction, or I like the string of numbers that they use in a game. I play the faction that most of them fall into purely as a way to use them. Not for the joy of playing the game. I'm a builder, a maker, not a game player.
    For me, the game is a bonus to having those models, NOT the raison d'etre for owning them.
    To me, there are NO "invalidated" models. They just no longer have a function in this iteration. Every tool is a hammer at least once in its life, even if that wasn't its stated or intended use.
    It's cool to have something to use them in, but there ARE other rulesets out there that don't give a flying f*** at a rolling doughnut which models you use, and any "invalidated" models work fine with them (even *gasp* models from different manufacturers - getting together in poly-plastic and poly-metallic unions).

    As for the attachment to fluff. I'll take what I like from it and discard the rest - always have, always will. No matter the game OR genre piece. There's aspects of infinity's fluff I don't agree with and I just ignore those, just like the factions that revolve around them. Humans engaged in sufficient mutual co-operation to settle extra-solar planets - in less than a couple of centuries from now? You may as well tell me there are space wizards in the game.
     
  2. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Tell me again how my (in fact, every YJ player's) Japanese models are not invalidated? I can no longer play them?

    Imagine if you bought a car (a pretty car) and 1 year after the purchase the seller told you "oh, sorry, you can't no longer drive this car unless you buy these 2 motorcycles and even if you do all those extras you got for you car when you bought it have to come out even when I never told you about this when you bought the car a year ago." I suppose you would be pretty pissed, and I suppose even more when that car seller goes Holy Python and the Holy Grail French castle mode and laughs at you.

    Also, I don't really care about your" I'm an artist, not a gamer" diatribe as these models are being sold as a game and not only as painting figures, so my point still stands about both invalidated purchases and managing customer relations.

    But enough about Uprising.

    P. D: your condescending and egocentric tone makes it pretty hard to think you are trying to present any valid points and not just wallowing on some kind of perceived (by you) superiority. It's quite obnoxious
     
    #162 Benkei, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  3. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    My condescension is countering your hyperbole.

    But you do you. The ignore list exists for a reason.
     
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  4. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    CB's own proxy rules that were, IIRC, updated at the same time Uprising happened. Next question?

    The condescension here is partially in jest, but I also have a hard time following this argument every time it comes up. I could literally play all my Morats as YJ if I wanted to... in an official tournament... unpainted (180° LoF notwithstanding).

    The only thing you can actually be upset about is the fact that you can no longer include several staple (I actually don't know how staple they were, as I never played YJ) troop profiles in your lists. IA apparently didn't fully compensate for their loss either. That's a valid argument.

    But all this stuff about not being able to use something you spent money on anymore is a baseless argument. If you're hell bent on playing WYSIWYG, that's on you. Hell, I see people still using their damn Exrah as proxies!

    Back on topic... I'm not so upset that the cheaper TAGs had to pay for their TA, but I'm a little bummed to find that they are paying more for it than an HI. If this was supposed to be a buff to encourage TAG play, it should have been 2 points, max.
     
  5. Alfy

    Alfy Well-Known Member

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    That’s incredibly hypocritical. Players at not at fault for wanting and buying models that are sold as accurate representations. You might as well argue there’s no loss because people can still use their JSA models as proxies in a game of little ponies.
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I don't see how it's hypocritical, nor was my comment in any way suggesting that the models were useful because they could be played in some random game that's not Infinity. I literally said that the models could still be used - in an official capacity - within the game. I also didn't say that it was a players fault for wanting to play WYSIWIG, I simply said that's not a very good reason to be mad considering how much people need to proxy in this game with armies that have been established for a long time.
     
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  7. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Back to topic, as a thought I tried to create a limited insertion list that can handle an alpha strike from a Avatar/Sphinx/Cutter, that have 11+ orders to use...conclusion I won't play limited insertion
     
  8. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Even with some TO AHD or even Camo AHD? I've played a Cutter list more than a handful times and the problems I faced before are still there.
     
  9. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    I am playing only Tohaa so thinking about the tools I have as a Tohaa, Mates Mates Mates seems mostly the answer to create effective speed bumps ;)
     
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  10. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Not all factions can face a cutter as "easilly" as others could. Also, an AHD has to wait for it to appear, and it can be really far away from the cutter. One free order for one of them, while the HD still needs a lot of orders to get near and do something.

    Meanwhile, all the TAGs that pay for the hability, can be dealt as if them were just oversized HIs (in some cases, they are).

    Think of it this way: now they give a new hability to all MI, like advance deployment, but only those of 30 or fewer points pay for it. Prowler doesn't pay because it has a better hability, that's ok. Wildcats pay because it's a new hability, ok. Intruder doesn't pay because it was expensive enought before.... that would have enraged most of the people that see that TA for free in expensive TAGs is OK. No, their opportunity cost was high because it was needed too, they effect in the game was also higher and more effective. Now the cost for geckos and the others that pay got higher with not so much improvement, and the others got a good improvement (that can use better) for free.

    Now is done, and we cannot do nothing unless the group that CB usually listens to start to criticize, but this will not happen this season because they are mostly in the free-hability side.
     
  11. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Hiding and Makauls waiting for the TAG to come in HFT range never had been what you usually do against PanO and AC? You can still use the Sukeul ML as an ARO at long range but opting for a low profile in reactive is the best way to deal with a Cutter. It's not exactly the same with a Sphinx or an Avatar but I think it could be close.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Ahh... as it turns out, it's been Year of the Tohaa all year long! The Tohaa roster has been filled several years ago. I guess CB are done, no need for any new releases! Silly CB for not realizing that Games Workshop had them covered as early as the 80s, all that effort making cohesive looking range of miniatures for each faction for naught. Seriously, it's embarrassing seeing the argument that proxy means nothing changed and all your collection is useful.
    Yu Jing isn't weaker for Uprising and IA release, but lost some variance in list building while rivalling factions gained variance in the same year. That's about it. Variance power, two different things, IA is bad at both, ISS is good at both, while vanilla Yu Jing is and was Milquetoast in power and is now also Milquetoast in variance. Let's move on.

    Arguably, Tohaa could use SymbioBombs to deal with strong TAGs like Sphinx or Cutter, Hellzone or Eraser has a decent chance of stopping them once they are out of Marker state while Pandemonium has decent shot at making them simply stop being a threat in active turn. I know, crazy thought. Just a shame SymbioBombs are so costly compared to Mates and are basically mutually exclusive. Using terrain to their advantage is also possible considering how usually it is not very easy for a list with these costly TAGs to also be able to mount the means to deal with entrenched units inside buildings. Not all tables have an indoors, of course, but there you go.
    The thing is, this is not a huge change. One more order doesn't do much in terms of actually defending against TAGs in LI, you've still got the same difficulties to get over, you just need to do it one extra time.
     
    #172 Mahtamori, Sep 23, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2019
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  13. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    Sorry Mahtamori but bombs only effect units with wound attribut...Tags beside Gorgos have STR so bombs are pretty useless against Tags...
    http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/Pheroware_Tactics
    But yeah that one order more makes it not that much more problematic but the chance gets increased that I could see such a unit.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Ah, right. Missed that one. Thanks :)
     
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  15. Wizardlizard

    Wizardlizard Well-Known Member

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    I agree the point change in mini tags was not a great idea. I also don't think ta makes it any more likely I take a tag. Unless abtag has armor 10 or natural modifiers to be hit they are just too many points to sink into a single unit.
     
  16. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    So CB can stop releasing models as we can use the models we already have to play everything. Looking forward to people playing armies made up of models from different factions with different paintjobs and not even the appropriate equipment ("look, this Shinobu here is actually a Feuerbach ORC, this Aquila Guard is actually a Helot, and this Makaul is another Helot, and this other Aquila Guard is an Echo Bravo, got it?")
     
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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    They look different enough that @Cypherkk isn't buying NuShas, and he loved his "this blank page is my courtesy list" Shasvasti armies.

    I feel like NuShas look too much like the various Ur models (Nexus, Avatar, Charontid, Skiavoros, Anathematic, Overdron, Xeodron, and Unidrons). I liked the combined army more when each species looked radically different.
     
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  18. Cthulhu363

    Cthulhu363 Well-Known Member

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    09/23/2019 @ 1411 and people are still complaining about JSA leaving Yu Jing. Thread topic is
    "TAGs get Tactical Awarness". Can we talk about that please?
    I've been playing NA2 this season, so i've been mostly using the Anaconda. That extra order (when i remember to use it) is great for putting him in suppressive at the end of his rampage. I think this should have been given to the light TAGs for free, just to let them see table time.
    Now the Avatar, getting this for free, giving him 3 orders by himself, is still a super confusing decision.
     
  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's kinda where I'm at, too.

    I like the change, but I think the points costs were strangely applied.
     
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  20. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    The Tac Awareness extra order is also an adjustment to the presence of Jammers in the game. Even if Isolated, they get two orders, which ain't nothing (and can get them closer to someone who can fix them). Seems like a pretty clear balance to that, and makes the Avatar and Geckos both getting it make a bit more sense.

    This may also indicate that we're going to see more Jammers, or more things that can Isolate a unit.

    God I hate Jammers. Not that I'm above using them, given how insanely versatile and powerful they are. But TAGs definitely needed some sort of consolation prize against them, and here it is.
     
    #180 Savnock, Sep 25, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2019
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