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TAGs get Tactical Awarness

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Marduck, Sep 2, 2019.

  1. Armihaul

    Armihaul Well-Known Member

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    Well, is more in the way of another time CB buffing the already good units when trying to fix the unplayed ones, making no real adjustments. But this time is worse because the boost is free for the good ones, but some other in need of a fix, don't get it (or have to pay for something the good ones get for free).

    We will see later the impact in the game, but I think the 75+ points that were played will remain played and would be outright better than before, some of the unplayed might see some game, and some of the played because were just cheap will not be played because the cost is not so good now
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I know that for some godawful reason people like to make 9-order IA lists (with the final slot taken by a Warcor), but the whole point of TA on a TAG in factions like MRRF is so you can push 11 orders on it. This is the same reason why Sun is interesting. You can't do that by buying more Metros.
     
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  3. AngryPanda

    AngryPanda Well-Known Member

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    I'm not trying to get that ball rolling because it's a beast that never stops but as someone who used tags quite a bit I'd be happy if they would just get to roll their armor saves all the time. I don't think I ever lost one without at last 1 crit going through. No need for more special rules and patches. Just let the stats actually do their thing. That said I'd taker the second order. If 5 to 8 point warbands can come with 2 I really don't see why the TAG can't.
     
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  4. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    But the point is the base problem is ARM being an overcosted attribute, that's a big part of the reason why HI and TAGs are hurting. Why not fix that instead of applying patch after patch of circumstantial rules? Either make ARM cheaper or, preferibly, make high ARM have a real impact in the game
     
  5. AngryPanda

    AngryPanda Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Again almost everyone seems to agree arm is overcoasted, warbandsare too good, etc. Maybe letting crits ignore armor is not the solution (I just personally think it is, again I don't think I'd have lost a tag without one, often two or three) then some other way too boost it. I'd suggest more wounds but again, why put on more layers of extra instead of just making what they got work?
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Specifically for TAGs, to me it seems like the base price for a TAG is simply too high (which I'm basing off of the comparison between Gecko and Mowang - the two most similar TAG and Non-TAG pair you can find IMO). Yes, ARM is overvalued, but the Guijia, Dragoes, Cutter, etc, are all in an ARM class where the benefit curve of ARM is starting to show its exponential nature and I, personally, would argue that ARM 8+ units pay fairly close to the reasonable price for their level of ARM, with the Jotums possibly paying too little.
     
  7. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Well playing limited insertion MRRF is something you do for Lolz (I did it last year in the Interplanetario. It was fun. But not nearly as good as what you can do with Ariadna)

    I like to use the Anaconda in MRRF in a 18 orders list. Now with +4 pts Anaconda that get Tac Awarness but that is more likely to die than another hiding metro I really don't know if I get a buff or a nerf ... And that is kinda problematic if the point of it was to incent us to play more TAGs.

    I'm pretty sure we will se more Pano and CA TAGs now. Not sure about the other ones ...

    That is a very good assessement imo.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    It is inarguably not worse. I'd say better, but if you during turn 1 get unlucky against an ADHL or take one too many crits, it could be situationally worse. A hiding Metro isn't going to do anything with their order or two (depending on which turn we theorise the TAG to go down), so what you need to make sure of is that the extra 4 points you save goes to something useful such as a weapons upgrade or extra specialist.

    Is it good enough? I'm not so sure, the Anaconda is kind of terrible in a way that makes me look at the Guijia and think "at least you'll never be an Anaconda, there is still hope for you, friend"

    No doubt, and my fear is that it'll make AHDs common enough that it affects other hackable lists even more negatively.
     
  9. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I think his point was in the way of "I now have to make a choice between the Anaconda with +4pts, and the Metro I no longer can deploy because of points"
     
  10. Marduck

    Marduck Well-Known Member

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    Not really. I usually can fit all the metro I like. It's just I fail to understand the reasoning for increasing the cost of this unit but not the Tik and other TAG. But I will stop to be salty about it. It's not going to affect my gaming experience that much.

    Fair enough, you probably right.
     
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  11. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    That is an excellent point. The buff is a good one, and will really help TAGs stay in the game now that we see more and more Jammers. An Isolated TAG that still has 2 orders is still a decent threat.

    If your meta didn't have many AHDs before, that's more of a deficiency IMO. Seeing a decent number of those gives KHDs something to do, a vital mission, and creates more challenge for units that would otherwise ROFLstomp.

    (Filthy Nomad space-peasant here, I love me some AHD and rarely leave home aka my squalid space-rock without one).

    One of the most obvious next-iteration adjustments to make this more balanced would be to keep that Tac Awareness on Operators. It's a decent boost to both the Iguana and the Anaconda.

    Strongly agreed. This buff would not have been unbalanced for cheaper TAGs with either no cost increase or a very, very small one (1-2 points max). No need to disrupt builds with those mini-TAGs barely squeaked in, while buffing the big guys for free.

    The opposite should probably have been applied: Increase 1 point under 70 cost, 2 points up to 80, 3 points up to 100, and 4 points over 100.

    All of the above said: I am very happy to see this rule come in. I designed an extra Irregular per TAG into a TAG-specific scenario back in N2 and found it pretty balanced back then.
     
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  12. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Our highest ranked player tends to have one AHD and fairly often one normal HD and a scattering of KHD. This is the amount of hackers I expect to face and what gives me problems when running HI Cores (and thus the reason why I think it is Playing IA Wrong™ to play with HI Cores). With higher number of AHD I mean what I have come to expect from Nomad space-peasants, which would translate to reliably 2+ AHD per list - although arguably the problem with Nomads are the freaking Repeaters and Pitchers everywhere.

    The problem gets to reliably squashing those hackers, and to do that you tend to need to have sufficient number of KHD and Repeaters and that can be hard to accomplish outside the Hacker Masters (Haqq, Nomads, Aleph, Combined).

    So that's what I fear with when factions that previously didn't tend to run high-key hackables now risks being incentivised to run them.
     
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  13. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Local Nomads are picking up Zero AHDs now they have Hecklers to handle the KHDs
     
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  14. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    Why run an AHD if you got Jammers
     
  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because you don't get top-20 in the world without covering all your angles twice or more.
     
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  16. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Also Spotlight can be handy. Gives you some sweet Spec Fire options if you really need them.

    And doing stuff through repeaters doesn't give up AROs against the repeaters themselves, which can come in handy.

    Dat Nomad lyfe is all about what you've got in the toolbelt when a need arises, beltalowda.
     
  17. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Monofilament would have to be reworked (at a minimum) if that's the change you're advocating for. Personally, if crits are to change, I'd rather see the damage boosted to 20, but allow an armor roll (ignoring +ARM for cover). That still allows Mono to do its thing and most crits to insta-gib no/low-ARM targets, but gives high ARM targets a chance to shrug it off.

    ...and now that I've typed this up, I realize this isn't really the thread for it. Sorry for the derail.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Eh, I disagree.
     
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  19. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Would it though even if it just auto hits making a target arm 0 then have to pass dam 12 it still has a good chance to fail. If the damage on a crit was increased to 20 then no model can pass it due to the nature of mono.
     
  20. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Jammers don't go through repeaters.
     
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