@xagroth you do have to call over a TO if @Andre82 did this against you since Andre has declared an illegal first Short Skill or possibly managed to get the gane to stall in an infinite logical loop. Only a TO could solve it by forcibly making Andre take back the skill declaration and declare a skill that does not violate causality. Andre82: if you dismount as your second Short Skill, you have to use the pilot's profile for the first Short Skill as well, which you can not possibly have done. Maybe declaring Reset as the first skill would work, but it's still iffy as hell whether you can resolve it without doing a complete take-back on the second Dismount. And remember, there are only two commandments: 1. I am not your God. 2. You shall not violate causality.
Name's Eschaton, written by Charles Stross, currently having 2 books (Singularity Sky and Iron Sunrise), quite good... but impossible to end, since causality would NEED to be violated for that to work (the Eschaton is an AI able to talk to its future and past self through time).
Yes, it seems that the only way for the game not to break is for a mount/dismount to only be possible on the first short skill. I'd love for an FAQ to be written for that though so this question doesn't come up again.
Hehe yes my playtesting habits sometimes get the best of me. If I did that in game I would call a TO 100%. However if I did it on a forum I might call it stress testing the rules. So how might a TO approach this if they want to fallow the rules of the game and also have no issue with players inventing odd combos and interactions? If I put my TO foot down for every odd rules interaction then we can easily start effecting how games are played and the value of units. For example the utility of Ninja's can take a hit depending on how your TO treats the engage rule. If I was TOing this. Precedent is set that you can activate a Tag, switch to the pilot profile and use the tag body to screen against LoF preventing ARO's. A situation I find just as silly but the community is ok with. As for what happens to the Swiss, I am not really sure. There is precedent that if I declare an order I can't do then I revert to idle. This would keep the Swiss in camo but revel his position and break HD. I could also see it as because it is an illegal ARO that he can't do anything, Keeping his HD but revealing his position. Now if as macfergusson suggested in another thread that you have to declare if you are activating the tag or the pilot profile at the start of the activation then we clear up a lot. The TO would simply smack me, inform me that my failure to announce what profile I was activating at the start of the order means the Swish guard gets to pick for me, If the Swiss picks Tag, then my second short being an illegal order would revert to idle and the Swiss gets to plug me for free. Personally I like the idea of combining the dismount rules with the prone rules as this clears up another tag issue relating to dismounting on a dodge.
Well I mean it depends how we're reading this, with the cybermask Szal example in another thread someone was pointing out that if you treat both models as separate troopers then the Cybermask breaks upon moving the pilot into contact with the TAG. If you push the same logic over to this example that they're both separate troopers with separate profiles that happen to have this incestuous order generation/useage when mounting/dismounting then it's not to much of a stretch to argue in this scenario that the TAG generated the ARO because he activated first, so he eats the ARO while the Pilot runs off and does his thing. You basically handle it like coordinated orders provoking AROs. Don't get me wrong this entire section of the rules needs to be rewritten, but I feel that's a way I'd be comfortable with handling the situation.
Where did you get that? It's not possible to activate the TAG and it's Pilot in the same Order. The Rules are pretty clear that the Pilot Profile will be used for the entirety of the Order. So it isn't possible to Idle with the TAG and then Dismount the Pilot in the same Order. By declaring Move, a trooper may Mount or Dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle, etc. at the start of his Movement at no cost, the new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order. Mount/Dismount makes it possible to Activate both Pilot and TAG at the same time. This also makes using Idle on a Unmounted Pilot pretty much a non issue. The same as a TO Camo model in Hidden Deployment, the Pilot is >not on the game table< as long as he is mounted, thus impossible to target with any ARO, regardless of ZOC, LOF or other requirements. For whoever asked if you could go Prone during a Dismount, I don't see why not. According to the rules it is a regular Move, which is all that is required. We have the same situation as with a Dodge on our hands (the trooper is using a Move), which allows to go Prone. When a trooper declares the Short Movement Skill Move, its player may indicate that it will go Prone. By doing so, the trooper begins its Short Movement Skill Move already in the Prone state. The Short Movement Skill Move is therefore executed while Prone and the consequent reduction to the trooper's MOV and S applies during its movement. As far as game States carrying over is concerned none of them do unless specified otherwise. The only exception I'm aware of is the Datatracker in ITS, which was specifically confirmed by Hellois and can't be carried over to i.e. Isolated. Dismounting a Motorbike and a TAG is not the same btw. A Motorbike is still the same trooper with different MOV and S values, while the Motorbike will be represented by a Marker. A Pilot dismounting his TAG will use the alternative Troop Profile while leaving the TAG's model on the table.
Yes, sort of, but that wasn't really the question. I mean, you are correct, but that's like explaining Mechanical Transmutation when someone asks about declaring Move up a wall with a Su-Jian that's already in Mobility Form. Yojimbo-On-A-Bike who dismounts into Total Cover is still not allowed to use their S4 profile at any point in the order. A question does spring to mind since you bring up how the Motorcycle is an entity that doesn't exist before Yojimbo dismounts, is if someone can see Yojimbo's dismount position and lobs a grenade at him, does the Motorcycle marker exist before or after Resolution step - i.e. does the bike take damage from the blast? As a side note, the Motorcycle rules could really do with a touch-up regarding the whole "same trooper" deal. It's only clear that the two are the same unit which is also true for a TAG and its Pilot.
I agree the pilot'ed TAGs need a heavy revision from scratch (instead of this "patch over patch over patch"). However, the FAQ states without room for doubt that using a short movement order to dismount means the pilot is the model generating ALL AROs (so you use S2), and using it to mount means the TAG generates the whole ARO (so you use S6, 7 or 8, depending on the TAG). This means I can park my TAG near a console, use a short order to dismount the Pilot (and the TAG provides total cover) as short move order, activate the console as attack short order, and in the next order I can mount the TAG, which will ARO, and fire with it (but I wouldn't be able to activate the console AND then mount the TAG, since the TAG is not a specialist)
Bear with me this is gonna take a bit. Likewise, any trooper with a Motorcycle has two different Silhouette (S) Attributes. Use the first Silhouette Template when the trooper is riding his Motorcycle and the second type of Silhouette Template when he dismounts and moves on foot. When a trooper on a Motorcycle declares the Short Skill Move and announces he will Dismount, replace the mounted figure by a Motorcycle Marker (MOTORCYCLE) or a piece of scenery of similar diameter. Place the trooper's model in base to base contact with the Motorcycle Marker, or measure his movement from the edge of the Marker's base, as you prefer. The rules go to great lengths to specifically mention when stuff is supposed to happen during the Resolution step of an Order, like Mine placement etc. In this case not only is that part missing, but the rules state that the Motorcycle Marker and the trooper are placed during the Declaration step of the Order, which is before the first Short Skill and possible AROs happen. So yes the S4 Motorcycle Marker can be hit by a template in the same Order. Each time the Active Player decides to use an Order (of whatever type) to activate a trooper, follow these steps: Activation: The Active Player declares which trooper will activate. Order expenditure: The Active Player removes from the table, or otherwise marks as spent, the Order Marker he uses to activate the trooper. Declaration of the First Skill: The Active Player declares the first Short Skill of the Order, or the Entire Order he wants to use. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and places the trooper at the final point of its movement. Declaration of AROs: The Reactive Player checks which of her troopers can react against the activated trooper, and declares AROs for each of them. If a trooper can declare an ARO but fails to do so, the chance is lost. If movements are declared, the player measures the movement distance and specifies where the trooper would be at the end of its movement. Activation is the necessary requirement to trigger an ARO, if it weren't for the Dismount rules.... By declaring Move, a trooper may Mount or Dismount a Motorcycle, TAG, Vehicle, etc. at the start of his Movement at no cost, the new troop profile will be applied during the whole sequence of the Order. ... it would technically be possible to shoot a Biker in his S4 "form" during activation before executing his first short Skill. However since the rules state a Dismounted biker will have S2 for the whole Order, this allows a Biker to possibly Dismount into Total Cover while avoiding to trigger any AROs. Note: I checked if the rules allow to Dismount Prone - which doesn't seem to be allowed. A Dismounting Biker (or Pilot) will begin his Activation as a S2 trooper, and can opt to go Prone at the begin of any Movement during Declaration of Skills later during the Order. There seems to be some sort of confusion here. A TAG Pilot is NOT the same trooper as the TAG, but an ALTERNATIVE TROOP PROFILE with the ability to enter and leave the table seperate from it's TAG. A Motorcycle is the same Trooper with different MOV and S values regardless of being Mounted or Dismounted. I couldn't find anything mentioning Motorcycles having Alternative Troop Profiles, only the mentionend different/separate MOV/S values.
It's not entirely consistent with the General Movement Rules, though. I did specifically mean the same unit, not trooper, however. Both bikes and tags are sort of needlessly complicated and barebones at the same time. :/
Alternative profiles refer to the other profile of the same trooper. Otherwise it would be a different trooper with a separate profile. Also, you'll note that troopers natively equipped with motorcycles do have alternate profiles in Army.
So to throw more fuel on the fire, for ITS mission scoring, TAGs and pilots are considered separate models. If you kill a TAG without killing the pilot you don't count as having killed a specialist. http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/50641-immisolate-and-hunting-party-scoring/
They aren't separate troopers, you simply didn't kill a profile with specialist skill (because it wasn't the active profile).
You seem to be misunderstanding something. A Pilot is indeed a different trooper with a separate Profile, just like and Auxbot which is also listed in the same Dossier as it's Controller. However they neither share Game States nor the same miniature on the board. In between G:Sync Troops and TAGs there also are vast differences. Troops with Symbioarmour or Bikes are the same Trooper, with a few different Profile values, Gamestates carry over. Wounds however only do so for the Motorcycle, a troop with Symbioarmour works differently as described in it's Skill. So my apologies but the Dossier says next to nothing about what to do with a troop with several Profiles on display, that is entirely up to the corresponding Special Rule/Skill or whatever. A TAG and it's Pilot are most certainly seperate troopers, as each of them triggers their own AROs, can die on it's own etc. Killing the Pilot simply doesn't count as a Specialist Kill for Mission purposes, because the Pilot rule says it doesn't count as long as the TAG essentially isn't in Dead State. That has nothing to do with them being the same trooper. I admit that the Datatracker Marker switching over to the Pilot and back to the TAG (in case of REM Presence TAGs), is a confusing exception, but just that - an exception.
Source? If you kill an Auxbot it doesn't prevent you from continuing to use it's Controller. However under Manned rules it explicitly states: Units with this Special Skill have an alternative Troop Profile with the Pilot Special Skill on it. Additionally, a dismounted TAG with a Pilot that dies is now useless. A roaming Pilot is removed from the board if it's TAG dies. This is not the behavior of "different trooper with a separate profile" at all. A Manned trooper whose Pilot has dismounted cannot use its TAG or Vehicle Troop Profile to declare Orders or AROs. If the TAG or Vehicle figure of a Manned trooper whose Pilot dismounted enters the Dead state, remove both the TAG or Vehicle and the Pilot from play.
@macfergusson Arguably, that behavior is there because of explicit clauses in rules, but as long as they specifically aren't in play, they don't let us make any conclusions about other interactions around the unit, I think.
As macfergusson wrote, this is not what the rules say. There is no way for both the TAG and the Pilot to each trigger their own AROs, because only one can be active during a single Order. The Pilot rule says that the Pilot doesn't count when the TAG is Unconscious: The Pilot of an Unconscious Vehicle or TAG is not considered either as a survivor or a casualty for Victory Points, Retreat! or any other purposes. If the Pilot has dismounted from a TAG on STR>0 and gets Killed, that will be a Specialist kill.
Not in the same Order, yes. Otherwise they trigger their own respective AROs, activating the Pilot doesn't grant AROs against the TAG and vice versa. You're also taking it out of context - which is the comparison to a troop with a Motorcycle, who only ever is present in one entity on the table (unless you want to count the Motorcycle Marker). Thanks for that. I completely missed the case when the TAG is still at >0 STR. So >0 STR - Specialist Kill counts. 0 STR/Unconscious - Specialist Kill doesn't count Dead - Specialist Kill counts Appears to me that wasn't intended to cover ITS missions requiring Specialist kills and turned into a loophole.
