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Symbiomupdate

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by colbrook, Mar 21, 2019.

  1. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    thats actually the symbiobomb in his picture. hugging claws = mate. Big belly = bomb
     
  2. Einhorn

    Einhorn Combined Human Aid Delegation

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    You saying that "it is fate" for a good army to receive the attention of people who are self-styled as "fueled by Tohaa tears" is the problem, not the nerf. The nerf is a design decision that I welcome; your posts and strawmanning are pitiful trolling.
     
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  3. Einhorn

    Einhorn Combined Human Aid Delegation

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    Right? It's a damn bomb. Guy can't even tell what a bomb is yet talks like he knows all about how they're designed. Man, the gall of these people coming into our forums.

    Learn what a symbiobomb is, lad!
     
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  4. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    The Bomb models are much cuter/more awesome than the Mates. :thinking_face: Makes me wonder what a Symbiobug would look like.
     
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  5. Einhorn

    Einhorn Combined Human Aid Delegation

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    My personal wish is for them to look like Beedrills, so it can feel like you stepped too close to a hive and got stung. I might change my SymbioBOMB image to a Symbiobug if they look that way. But if we are using the current base of the Mate and Bomb, a version with either wings or long sprinter legs might be plausible -- together with a mohawk.
     
  6. Abrilete

    Abrilete Well-Known Member

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    We'll [probably] never know.
    Time to make your own.
     
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  7. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
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    The problem I see with making them like the mates/bombs is that then there is further confusion for opposing players. Is this a marker that I can't directly interact with? Or is it a bug that is going to come explode on me.

    I mean its been time to make our own since the Taquel was released to us :stuck_out_tongue:
     
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  8. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    I welcome the change, I am sad that its another indirect nerf to our HIs and of course Gorgos and I am not sure if its the best way to nerf the mates but I will try it out and see. I found the mates boring to use but I often need the coc of the kaeltar because Rasail so took mates even in games that I didn't really want them...so I am happy about the change although I would have prefered if the bombs got coc and a bit more expensive so that I can use them more. Another welcome change would be only two kaeltar profiles and a kaeltar has 1 bomb and 1 mate so maximum number of mates is 2 and you have to use the bomb too.
     
  9. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    I never saw a bomb on the table before - I wonder why ;)
     
  10. Einhorn

    Einhorn Combined Human Aid Delegation

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    I look forward to your new excuse for losing to Tohaa when you finally do, mate :))
     
  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod when in doubt, Yeet

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    While ARM12 in Cover is pretty sturdy, ARM9 vs any sort of template makes the Mate a good bit less effective against those.
    Personally I'm thankfull that leaving out a Gao Rael Sniper or Sukeul ML for AROs isn't quite as brainless as it was before, you'll actually have to think about your positioning a bit. High damage guns, especially DAM16 TAG HMGs, have a good chance to punch straight through the Mate in between crit chance and failed ARM rolls.

    On the plus side you'll never get screwed again by a Crit against a 1W Active Symbiont Rasaiil for playing it smart.
    Since it's an ARM roll now you can also pull the Mate and go Prone without any discussion now.
    Most important is Total Immunity, a multiwound Crit will not just punch through the Mate and you'll actually live through a lucky ML or EXP CCW Crit anymore.
    Which is nice, so you have that going for you.
     
    #111 Teslarod, Mar 22, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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  12. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    I have to call the thread in order, discuss as much as you like, but attacking fellow posters is out of line.
     
  13. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant

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    @Teslarod
    Yeah, came here to post that multi-Wound crits won't rock a Tohaa player's gameplan as hard anymore. Total Immunity has its advantages.

    As a non-Tohaa player, I like that the Mates retain a lot of their functionality, but don't allow a Mate-wearing Tohaa to just MOV-MOV into B2B with an objective, into an armory or quadrant to contest it, etc.

    That was always a very hard mechanic to guard against. All other durable units (TAGs, Camo, etc) have rules or equipment that naturally counter them and challenge their ability to move wherever they want.

    Now, Tohaa will at least have to roll the dice for saves, and massed AROs at least pose some risk of punching through that big ARM value when a Tohaa unit is running around in the open. That's the big change I was hoping to see.
     
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  14. jimbo slice

    jimbo slice Well-Known Member

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    That's what I came here to see. The first page is disappointing... hopefully it will get better by the time I catch up with this post lol!
    I played at least 80% of my games against Tohaa for a year. It became unfun for both of us, as well.

    EDIT: Caught up to myself. I'm glad most of the Tohaa players don't seem upset. This really is a good change. After playing against Tohaa for 4 or 5 games, I figured out how to win, mates or no. What really caught me off guard the first time were Makauls, anyway. I hope we'll see more bombs now, they're actually pretty good. Their only problem was being compared to mates, and mates coming on the CoC profile.

    What made Tohaa unfun for me was feeling like I had to take a specific build just to deal with chewing through the mates (two Intruders + multiple smoke tossers, in my case), on top of my opponent having the ability to just completely negate an order, or ignore AROs for an order was really frustrating to play against. Not insurmountable once you learn how, but not fun either.
     
    #114 jimbo slice, Mar 22, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  15. Plex

    Plex Taagma without a scheme

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    As a mostly Morat, occasional Onyx Combined Army player, that's pretty much how I feel about playing against Ariadna. If I go to a tourney I need 1 generalist list and 1 list to attempt to stop Order + Camo spam from walking all over me.

    I stopped playing Tohaa right before Kaeltars originally dropped, because my local guys (and myself) got tired of watching me play infinity by myself behind a curtain of zero V smoke.

    I starting playing with no Makauls but Tohaa then weren't really up to it, then tried running without Triads which worked pretty well, but after awhile I just figured it was time to try out other flavors of aliens.

    With these new changes I'm looking forward to seeing if it's worth dusting off my old artichokes.
     
    #115 Plex, Mar 23, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
  16. Hiereth

    Hiereth AI Artichoke

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    I understand the Tohaa frustration on the game table, but yeah Ariadna is not something I enjoy playing against
     
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  17. Vanderbane

    Vanderbane Well-Known Member

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    So I’ve been running some numbers on the new symbiomate change to get a feel for how big a shift the Symbiomate nerf represents (thanks to the infinity dice roller). I’ve been comparing case studies of the common Tohaa troops that I use to carry a Mate (which in my experience are the light and medium infantry options) vs. various enemy troops. This means I’m not too worried about the effect on the Gorgos, which I think we can all see is going to be pretty rough. So, basically, not exhaustive, but I’ve run a dozen or so match ups at this point, both reactive and active turn just to make sure I don’t miss anything obvious.

    Before if you lose the FtF and you used the Old Style Mate, you’d obviously ignore the non-critical hits. Starting next week, we have to roll ARM for all of those with the New Style Mate. What I’m seeing is for all those hits that you would have been able to ignore by spending the Old Style Mate, it works pretty close to ~half of those hits wound you on a New Style Mate. This makes sense when you consider the ARM stat differences between the models and the New Style Mate. So, in terms of effectiveness, for these troops the Mate is about half as good as it used to be in most situations.

    By way of comparison, I looked at what would happen in the same scenarios if instead of a Mate granting armor, it instead granted a one-time-use ODD effect (this comparison may seem random, but stick with me. It’s been a hobby horse of mine for awhile). Turns out that in terms of taking damage, this is very similar to the New Style Mate - that is, a one-time-use ODD Mate would take wounds at about the same rate as the ARM boosting New Style Mate. The difference is that the one-time-use ODD effect shifts most of it’s damage soaking effect not into a push but instead into damaging your opponent (that is, you win the FtF and put wounds on their model). This effect is obviously way better than the ARM effect from the New Style Mate. I’d put it on par with the Old Style Mate (b/c you win FtFs and kill models, which is always better than just negating them).

    This gets at my fundamental argument about Mate’s in the first place, which is that the problem people have with them is not they they are too good. It’s that the Old Style Mates feel bad. If the New Style Mate had been the one-order-use ODD instead of a bump in ARM, I think everyone would have been happy with that result. We all know ODD is good, but we don’t really think of it as broken. Hell, it’s seen as completely legitimate when you pull one on a booty table, and that’s _real_ ODD, not a one-order-use ODD. But in real terms, a one-order-use ODD would have been about as powerful as the Old Style Mate.

    The key here is that the old Mates felt terrible, because you make both your opponent’s orders and their successes not matter. This was bad design, for sure, but I don’t think it was actually overpowered. So it’s too bad that we got a nerf here instead of something designed to address a real problem which is the feel of the game.
     
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  18. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I'll need to play with it first, but that result surprises me.

    This is some serious napkin math in comparison to your analysis, but I'd say the most common hits I pawned with a Symbiomate were HMG, Sniper DA rounds, and the occasional missile, but also with a solid dash of good old fashioned rifle fire on more up close and personal fighting. The new symbiomate offers an 85% or better chance to protect against those weapons unless the enemy model has Fatality. An old Symbiomate would offer a 100% chance to protect. Against a DAM15 weapon, an ARM2 model in in cover would have had a 50% chance to pass if the Symbiomate hadn't been spent.

    Can you break down your take that symbiomates are now half as effective for me in context of this?

    Edit: I'm also having a hard time what you mean by an 'ODD symbiomate'. When would you declare use? Before an enemy attacks? I don't want to pass judgement, but that sounds like a hot mess.


    (To note, this isn't assuming the new rules omit the old 'can't cancel crits' rule. If they do, it would mean the new mates are an upgrade against those rare-but-catastrophic circumstances where a enemy missile, feuerbach or similar weapon crits.)
     
    #118 RobertShepherd, Mar 23, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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  19. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    So would we say that being able to tank a crit with Total Immunity in exchange for rh old Symbio-Mate makes it a side-grade?
     
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  20. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    I'd say minor downgrade still, but leveling out symbiomate performance to be more effective in catastrophic circumstances and less effective in general is still one I'd be very happy making, because catastrophic circumstances are what lose games.
     
    #120 RobertShepherd, Mar 23, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2019
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