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SWC Value

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Lieutenant, Feb 6, 2019.

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  1. Kiwi Steve

    Kiwi Steve Well-Known Member

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    To put the top placing into perspective though, how many of the top 10 at the event regularly feature in the top 10 regardless of what they play?

    I know the bigger events I've played at in several systems over the years have often endrd up with the same players at the top end, regardless of faction, and similarly players of the same faction with similar armies placing regularly near the bottom.

    How much of the result is just that the really good player in some areas are attached to a particular faction?
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    @Kiwi Steve I doubt you'll be able to get this data.
     
  3. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Don't think its gonna be easy to get that sort of data, but it is out there.

    I can give you anecdotal evidence though - down here in Brazil we re not a very large group, but almost all ITSs are won by one of 4 guys. The only exceptions are when none of them are participating.

    People even used to joke that there is one guy that is called "Final Boss". You gotta beat him if you want any chances of winning a ITS.

    Of those 4, 3 of them play 2 factions. From the top of my head its Haqq/Onyx, Tohaa/Haqq, Bakunin/MAF. And then there is one guy who plays mostly Aleph, but will show up in a ITS with pretty much any faction in the game. So on our side those factions that are played by those guys are almost always represented in the top bracket.

    Brazil is, however, fairly new to the scene and we have plenty of players that are learning (FAST!!) and that will probably not be the scenario in a year or so. But right now, representation in the top bracket is pretty much caused by the armies that the top players play.
     
    #143 Wyrmnax, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
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  4. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I don't agree that any Sectorals or factions are really stronger than any others, but I'll definitely say that there are some things that people in general seem to find harder to deal with (even if they aren't that hard to deal with). Case in point, TAK Camo spam. Perfectly beatable! Just quite psychologically intimidating. I think people put TAK at the top of the "power curve" because people don't like facing camo spam, rather than because they have any measurable advantage over other forces.
     
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  5. Papa Bey

    Papa Bey Clueless Wonder. Still.

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    What's the difference between TAK camo spam, and regular ole Ariadna camo spam?
     
  6. SirGrumpyPants

    SirGrumpyPants A little grumpy

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    More vodka
     
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  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    TAK: 14+camo markers and 9 Ambush Camo
    Vanilla: 19+camo markers, 6 Ambush Camo, and 8+ Limited Camo.
     
  8. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    I'd sure bet on the best player with the worst faction (if we could decide what that was) vs a mediocre player with the best faction (if we could even agree on that). That points towards the game being relatively well balanced still, and I think why we see the same names in a meta finishing well despite faction.

    That doesn't mean that power creep isn't a thing, or that some factions don't have overall stronger builds than others though. It's pretty likely those things will happen over time, and it's not even a bad thing, necessarily. Evolution keeps things interesting.
     
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  9. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Less flexible but with a link team at the back.

    Both of them, perfectly beatable. Just a bit intimidating to play!
     
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  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    For me, like

    If you look at the linked Kamau Sniper then hoooooly shit what a beast! BS 13, Mimetism, MSV2, and can link with Fusiliers? That's so efficient! But at the same time, let's look at a troop that was much maligned when it came out, the Govad. Well, a five man Govad link with a HMG is getting B5 on 15s vs B2 on 16s which is a bit of an advantage to the Govad. And we're talking about tactics as advanced as "spend an order, Move to the corner, ARO shoot? Okay I shoot you back" here! Not like anything super clever going on! When you start to play it smart...

    Like, a Grenzer Spitfire in a Securitate team. Get into 16" with that Spitfire and you're getting B5 on 16s vs B2 on 13s. That's really good odds! And if you win the ftf, you'll almost totally defang the team. Now, getting there is a bit trickier, but that's the key isn't it? That's the tactical question that Infinity poses, how do you get your guy in the right place to deal with your opponent's guys? And people are saying "well VIRD push the power curve, but TJC are fine" really? I don't think you need to be any better at Infinity to take apart a VIRD force with a TJC force than the other way around. You need to be precise, you need controlled aggression, you need to be smart but decisive.

    Well that was true in the 1st edition of the game! The new Sectorals I think are doing new things, which is good. They have capabilities which other Sectorals maybe don't. That seems like it's overpowered. I think it's just a case of them being different. VIRD is nasty. Is it nastier to deal with than a Swiss Guard? Because Swiss Guard used to be even more horrible when you didn't get to shoot back until after they'd kill you (and HMGs were better...) but we all learned to deal with it then.
     
  11. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

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    upload_2019-2-18_20-3-38.png
    vs
    upload_2019-2-18_20-4-50.png
    upload_2019-2-18_20-3-38.png
    vs magically advancing
    upload_2019-2-18_20-5-41.png
    [​IMG]

    Interesting how they removed that interaction from the rules... Must've been so weak.
     
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  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I ever suggested that the Govad team costed the same amount of points? I said that it's not so hard to deal with the Kamau Sniper if you have the right tools, and everyone has access to those tools.

    Also as far as "magically advancing" goes yeah it's called White Noise, Interventors have it. Science, not magic!
     
    #152 Solar, Feb 18, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2019
  13. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
    Warcor

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    You were talking about ways to remove Kamau. However, your analysis and suggested "solutions" ignored everything except direct odds. Now, there is a whole slew of problems with your proposed solutions, but easiest to point out was that your solutions cost more than the problem while providing questionable benefits otherwise.

    Take Govads. You correctly point out they are considered underpowered and rarely played. The fact that they do well (passably well anyway) against the Kamau still leaves the problem of dealing with everything else that isn't Kamau in enemy army, and you are already paying more for them than Kamau is worth.

    Any solutions must be considered in the scope of the whole army, the opportunity costs of taking other units as much as expectations on terrain layout, etc. Otherwise it's not solution, it's just being an armchair major.

    As for magically advancing, well, Hackers in Infinity have been called Space Wizards :-P

    Note: I don't actually think Kamau link is that big of a deal. I mean, it's supremely cost efficient, but yes, it's also perfectly possible for armies to deal with them. I just took umbrage with your arguments in this case :)
     
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  14. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    My point was that a single order spent on a link team that is traditionally maligned (incorrectly so but whatever) in a very basic tactical move can deal with the Kamau Sniper.

    Sure, that does mean I'm paying more for the team than the Kamau and Fusiliers... And? So? I still have the team and a bunch of orders to spend on them. Not like I'm doing a piece change, where comparative costs would be more relevant. And yeah I do have the rest of the force to deal with. And? So? That's true of anything. That's literally true of everything you do in the game short of the order you spend wiping them.
     
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  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    No, that's a pretty big deal. Points should track with a unit's efficiency. There are exceptions (non-direct template weapons on warbands) but those are bugs, not features.
     
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  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Okay

    Right

    Just because the tool for effectively dealing with a thing is more expensive than the thing does not mean that the thing is too cheap. Otherwise a Tikbalang would always be terrible against Haqq because the Tikbalang is more expensive than everything on the board. It effectively kills Ghulams! But Ghulams are only 12pts a model and the Tikbalang is 85pts thus the Ghulam is too cheap! Obviously this is not the case. Do I really, really, really have to explain why this is obviously not the case.
     
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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    N3 made it a lot harder to force Normal Rolls on someone in general.
     
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  18. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This is true, but for 5- man fireteams designed to win ftf rolls, the comparison can be pretty direct, because they both provide the exact same thing for their list.
     
  19. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    MO scored third in a tournament that involved quite a bit of button clicking? Impossible! PanO forums told me they are literally unplayable now! That without Hospitallers + Magisters you may as well just throw the models away!
     
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  20. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    The problem with your point isn't that it's wrong, just that it isn't especially relevant. Your point would be true even if the Kamau was free, but that wouldn't mean the Kamau is well balanced if you didn't pay anything for it. No one disputes that there are things in the game that can generate favourable odds against the Kamau in their own active turn. That's not the contention.

    The contention is that the Kamau is an example of a profile that has the appearance of being more efficient at what it does than the peak of similar things that have gone before, and that potentially in combination with multiple other things that are also more efficient than what has gone before (eg Helots, Zulu's, Cutters with links) this provides some credible (but not conclusive) evidence of power creep in the game. If you compare them to profiles that have gone before, the older profiles appear to pay more to do similar things (eg your own example Govads). Now the power creep theory might prove to be incorrect over time - ie Kamau are good but VIRD have other compensating weaknesses that make it not an example of power creep, just VIRDs special thing. I haven't seen a lot of arguments that convince me of that so far.

    New things in the game do not need to be at an advantage in every conceivable engagement for them to be examples of power creep though. That's fallacious logic.
     
    #160 Hachiman Taro, Feb 20, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2019
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