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SWC Value

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Lieutenant, Feb 6, 2019.

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  1. Xeurian

    Xeurian Well-Known Member

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    Carbines equally suited for short and medium range engagements, presumably.
     
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  2. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    Even at 0 swc meteors would be a hard sell right now.

    Well, they did it terribily wrong them.

    Because the Kriza simply outdoes anything a fireteam can do in Tunguska.

    Ok, the Hollow Man is better with BS16 and B5 spitfire. But it costs 3x what a Kriza does, and moving 5 people up is much more risky than moving a single guy.

    There are 3 main reasons to go setorial instead of vanilla:
    - fluff - and this can't really be discussed. Either you like said setorial's fluff or not, and that is completely personal
    - Avaliability - the useful of which can be severely discussed. Very few units max AVA on a vanilla faction and you want more of them on their setorial.
    - Fireteams. Kriza made any offensive fireteam in Tunguska mostly irrelevant, except to move up a button pusher. And he can do so by himself on a duo. So what you have left are defensive teams only.
     
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  3. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Guns carried by DEVGRU assault teams include:

    DEVGRU snipers may carry:

    • MK 12 SPR - 5.56 x 45mm sniper rifle
    • MK 11 - 7.26 x51mm medium sniper rifle
    • MK-13 - a Remington 700 variant firing .300 win mag
    • McMillan TAC-338 - sniper rifle firing the deadly .338 Lapua Magnum round
    • MK 15 - long range bolt-action sniper rifle chambered in .50 BMG
    • M82 - .50 caliber extreme long range anti-material rifle
    DEVGRU teams typically perform roles with weapon load outs optimized for the assignment. Cobi-rifles are a bit too future fake for me when we have plenty of weapons in the Infinity-verse that make sense. A team like this takes weapons that are optimized, because everyone can take something according to their role. "Equally suited" is synonymous (with specialized military personnel) with equally bad at both.
     
  4. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    I would say you're really underselling Tunguska's defensive fireteam options here. And at the same token, I'm not sure if Hollow men are better than Kriza, even when linked, in terms of raw damage output.

    However, this SWC talk does have me thinking that some costs should be reviewed. We should get more things like Moderator Lieutenants costing 1 SWC in vanilla but 0 SWC in Bakunin. And I myself wouldn't mind paying 2,5 SWC for what's essentially a slightly less strong HRMC with a visual modifier.

    However, the biggest issue here is that in order to do so CB would have to go back and redo old, positively ancient sectorials, and it seems like right now they are doing that in a case by case basis, so we might have to wait a few years before Nomads actually gets a proper SWC rebalance.
     
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  5. RogueJello

    RogueJello Well-Known Member

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    Not really. Red Fury is D13, FD L1 is not Infiltrate, Limited Camo is limited.

    I'd also argue special rules. For example having Wallace with Inspiring Leadership, which is only available in Caledonia, and completely changes how the sectorial plays.

    Also access to special profiles, which you sorta touch on with AVA, but it's a bit more than just a bump, since some mercs can only be taken in a sectorial. For example McMurrough in Caledonia, OSS's special Asura profile with LT2, or the TAK only Tractor Mul's.
     
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  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    This doesn't mean "wrong." It just means you don't like it. I guess they decided that Nomads needed top-tier brute force (and Jammers) to go with their hacking/subterfuge game.
     
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  7. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'd be using a Zulu Spitfire as a point of comparison rather than a Heckler RF. This Basically trades 4-4 Move and FD1 for 4-2 Move and Infil.

    But this ignores the point: SWC costs are at least a little bit arbitrary (Compare Kamau and Wildcat) so there is no 'true' SWC value for a Camo Infil Spitfire. So there's no reason that it can't be 1SWC* (which is the alternative SWC cost of BS12 Spitfires in Nomads).

    * I don't even think that 1SWC Prowler Spitfires would be that broken, it'd just increase be probably an order of magnitude how often. It appears in lists.

    VIRD is actually really interesting from an SWC standpoint. Kamau, Zulu Cobras and Echo Bravos are all SWC inexpensive if you compare them to similar units across different factions. This is part of the reason that VIRD is less prone to being locked out of the game if their SWC pieces go down.
     
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  8. Wyrmnax

    Wyrmnax Well-Known Member

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    What I meant is:

    If they made the Kriza as a way of promoting Tunguska, it actually does the opposite job.

    The Kriza existing in vanilla means you do not need the offensive firepower a Fireteam from Tunguska would give you, cutting down a lot of your incentives to go tunguska instead of vanilla.
     
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  9. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    Zulu Spitfire vs Prowler Spitfire, and especially Kamau HRL vs Wildcat HRL are good specific references for power creep being real, if Varuna in general isn't enough.
     
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  10. ldgif

    ldgif Well-Known Member
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    I think you are underselling a lot of the offensive fireteams in TJC. Hollowmen have unmatched mobility and can really get around to get great flanks. Also Perseus offensive link is a real treat. Fully linked up he gets about the same odds shooting at things without MSV within 32” as a Kriza does. Now his link costs a lot more than a Kriza, but can also include multiple ARO options, a moving repeater, a specialist, melee if need be, and pack DTWs.

    I feel a lot of the people who only look at the Kriza for TJC are really limiting their view.

    For 2 more points than a HMG Kriza, one can get a RF Heckler and a Zondnaut Spitfire. Neither of those may be as strong in F2F as a Kriza, but offer mobility or (limited) camo as well an additional order.
     
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  11. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Im not sure how Echo Bravos fit in that list, .5 SWC for an LRL is right on standard as is 1 SWC for a red fury. Additionally 0,5 SWC for a paramedic with a combi rifle is pretty pricey from an SWC standpoint when its only got a disposable 1 EM weapon (a good one sure, but still disposable 1)

    The Kamau gets an SWC break on its HMG and potentially on its HRL, but the Kamau have always had that SWC break, in fact it probably comes more from them being LI than their cost and that would explain them relative to the wildcats (that being appropriate is another discussion)
     
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  12. Hachiman Taro

    Hachiman Taro Inverted gadfly

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    A lot of the argument for power creep is in CB leaning in to the most efficient outputs of the points formula over time though. That seems to be the case with Kamau at least. So I'm not sure being able to explain it in terms of the formula really counter argues it so much. You could as easily compare them to Baghs or Bolts (or even Fusiliers) and come up with a similar conclusion.
     
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  13. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's what I was getting at, yes.

    A carbine w/ red-dot (or holographic sight) and a magnifier would be my real-world equivalent of the Infinity combi-rifle.



    Yes, now look at the specific mission: clearing a building. No shots over 100m, possibly none over 10m, but you want more-than-pistol punch to put someone out of the fight ASAP.

    No need for the guys in the entry team to have MGs of any flavor or any sniper rifle bigger than the Mk11, and quite honestly I'd be surprised if they had a Mk11/SR25/AR10 or Mk12/M27/M38. I'd expect the entry team to be all HK416s (or whatever each operator's preferred building-clearing weapon is), but all the 5.56mm carbines are functionally-identical in Infinity terms. MP7s might be quieter, but this scenario is starting with a helicopter directly overhead. Quiet was good for getting to the scene, not at the scene. The entry team may have had a shotgun or two for breaching doors in addition to their carbines, but a kg or two of C4 and a crapton of detonators would be lighter and not significantly slower.


    The 4 guys, 'terp, and dog+handler on perimeter security might have had something longer-ranged (or an actual scope instead of red-dot and magnifier, so call the scoped carbine a Contender or Marksman Rifle in Infinity terms) or with greater ammo capacity, at least to ... 'discourage' Pakistani Army interference, but they also had a couple-dozen SEALs standing by about 45 minutes away, plus any door guns on their transport helicopters. At any rate, they didn't need to worry about shots over about 300m, and the basic M4/HK416/etc will cover that range just fine. Plus, they make 40- and 48-rd magazines for the 5.56mm NATO rifle, so 'ammo capacity' isn't necessarily a problem (that'd be a Red Fury in Infinity terms if you want to push the M27 there, but there's no reason that an HK416 can't use the high-cap magazines).




    So, if you wanted to get maximally-detailed, it'd be ~8 guys in the entry team with 'combi rifles' and D-charges (zero SWC), 4 guys on perimeter security with some mix of 0SWC marksman rifles and 1SWC Red Furies, one Interpreter with a 0SWC weapon (his job is talking to people to keep them from shooting), and a dog handler with 0SWC weapon (even K9 Antipodes are 0SWC). Max of 4 SWC and probably 1-2 SWC.
     
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  14. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Your theory-crafting is cute. This is a near exact loadout of what seal-team six carried into the raid. SMGs, carbines, and pistols, were carried by the entry team. (You’ll dock me for this, but I’m going to have to tell you that my source is personal).

    While this is your definition, it is much more like a rifle or marksman rifle or smg (depending at which weapon you look at), in Infinity. This Combi-nonsense makes sense in the future. We don’t use it now.

    Before you start telling me how you were in the military, I know. It doesn’t make you the authority. Many of us have served. (I hope you aren’t offended by this - I think it’s great that you served and provide personal insights; I do the same).
     
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  15. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Isn't the combi rifle merely a compact assault rifle, similar to this?:

    [​IMG]

    I'm no expert on guns but that seems to be how Combi-rifles are described in Infinity.

    I say this because, the major "combi rifle factions”, from YJ, Nomads, Aleph all have/had bullpup designs on their inception, with PanO being the outlier by having that derpy toploader that blocked the scope… ._.

    None of that seems to apply to the "rifle factions" of Aridna and Haqq, fx.
     
  16. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    0.5 SWC on AD ADHLs, DEPs or Deployable Repeaters is standard. 1 vs 3 is the standard proportion for Dep Reps vs Fast Pandas. I'd expect to play 0.5 SWC for AD Combi, Emaulers. So.5 SWC isn't pricey at all, particularly not on a profile that is a Specialist as well. Also, I could have sworn that LRLs were 1SWC on everything that isn't Rosie and that she paid 0.5SWC for it. So in hindsight I agree they're average not cheap.

    For the record I like that Varuna has access to SWC-cheap Shooty options. They have a variety of no/low SWC attack pieces that were previously absent. It positions them as an interesting faction for how they go about shooting things in the active turn, rather than simply seeing a ubiquitous Bulleteer filling that role. It's PanO design done well.

    But re: Kamau. If you think it's based on Wildcats being MI compare Kamau with Muyibs and Govads instead. That comparison (Govads, Muyibs, Kamau and Wildcats) really does illustrate that SWC is more of a guide than a rule or that the rule is way more complex than we know. Moblots vs Yadu are also instructive (1.5 SWC 1W HI vs 2SWC ~2W MI for the HMG... which makes sense).

    I don't necessarily buy @Hachiman Taro's argument that it's simply power creep either.* I think that's a side effectof it, but I think primarily it's a deliberate design decision to add variety in low/no SWC attack pieces for PanO. We saw it unsuccessfully with Locusts and VIRD is the next step. VIRD speaks successfully to the long run argument by PanO players that this was needed to keep the faction interesting.

    * And we know that Power Creep isn't an issue, Carlos told us so over 12 months ago.
     
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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    You're right, I am docking you a (little) bit because secret/occult knowledge is bad form in a debate, but if you know someone on the Teams I know you can't really say more. Security protocols are a PITA.


    Buy that person a beer for me, two if they were on the actual bin Laden raid (just PM me for reimbursement via Paypal)!



    I'm looking at it straight from a rangebands perspective, not a technology perspective.

    A modern equivalent to a combirifle would be any carbine optimized for greatest practical accuracy from 0 to maybe 160m (since Infinity doesn't have a defined groundscale, the real-world ranges are fuzzy and best expressed comparatively instead of exactly), regardless of how it achieves the optimization.
    • Right now, I'd do it with a bit of ergonomics and a bit of optics: an angled foregrip so your pointer finger naturally points where the weapon does for those pistol-range shots, and an EOTech+magnifier for the longer shots.
    • I'm reasonably sure the actual Infinity combirifle was using some fancy electronic primer and an even smarter optic (laser rangefinder plus holographic sight, i assume), since combis used to killed by EM weapons.



    But we're wandering a long way from my original point about how the breaching team wouldn't have any SWC weapons!
     
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  18. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The Kriza Borac does not simply outdo anything that a fireteam can do in Tunguska, that is crazy talk. It doesn't have MSV, it has BS 13, it doesn't have B2 in ARO etc. Krizas are good and the Haris option feels vaguely useless for them but the Hollow Men are fantastic next to them, sure the full team is like 150pts which is 2-3 times the cost of the Kriza, but also has five times as many orders, has more options, more wounds, faster etc etc etc. The Grenzer/Securitate link can have very accurate shooters backed up with cheap orders and works great in my experience.

    The only disappointing element to Tunguskan links is that the Grenzer/Interventor link seems a bit pricey and fragile, however without trying it I can't really say either way. Grenzer SWC box now plz CB.

    Anyway the point is that Krizas are good, very good, but not undealable with or even too good for their price (54pts for a BS 13 HMG is not cheap!) and I am curious as to how the world dealt with Swiss Guard and Hac Tao if active turn Kriza HMGs are just sooooo good.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not going to say the Kriza is OP or too good or too cheap or anything like that, but it's so much more worth its points (translation: better optimized) compared to Az'rail, Mowang or Yan Huo and roughly, I would say, on par with the Su-jian. It would be nice if this level of usefulness compared to investment was more common among the mid-tier heavy units.
     
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  20. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Which puts it right at the edge of 'too good', IMO, and that's comparing across factions. In-faction, there are very few answers to the question "why wouldn't you take the KB?" and that's not good for the game.



    Yes, everyone having more than one really good Heavy would be a very important step for game balance. In Imperial SS, the robokitty has beatstick competition from Wu Ming (from Duo all the way to Pain Train), but I don't really see the competition in Tunguska.


    The place I want to be in is, "wow, these are all really cool, how do I get them all into a single list?"
     
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