Before I tackle any kind of long-winded answer, I'm going to point something out. My point was that PanO really needs its SWC weapons to compensate for a relative lack of tactical versatility. Your rebuttal to this point was mentioning that PanO can depend on the Squalo HGL... A profile that costs 2.5 SWC. Then you quote several decent profiles, most of which also cost SWC. So... ...Thanks? I rest my case?
If all you got out of that was my point about the squalo, I don’t really know what to tell you. I provided a list of profiles with Camo of some variety (or ODD), direct template weapons, and weapons that allow PanO to attack indirectly. Yes, several profiles cost swc, but that is what this thread is asking about. PanO can and should, (in a lot of cases), spend swc on more than weapons alone. Contrary to your statement; PanO has plenty of access to the items you listed. (Though, of course, not smoke - and, as I said; white noise is irrelevant).
This whole conversation's a little surreal to me, because I know PanO's merits pretty well. If you think I'm complaining about PanO, I'm certainly not Mimetism and ODD aren't Camo. Their functionality is completely and entirely different. Mechanically, they operate at entirely different purposes. I'm actually surprised that someone would try and equate Camo and ODD in the same sentence. For the benefit of any new players wondering what we're talking about: Camo gives you mobility... Lets you bypass an entire range of ARO mechanics... And is quite simply one of the top 3 abilities in the game in terms of the dominant control it provides a player. In essence, you can't be hurt until you're Discovered, or your Reveal. This lets you move around almost with impunity (just don't step on a mine.) ODD and Mimetism are great, but they aren't Camo. They exist to manipulate modifiers in a face-to-face setting. You can use them in an unopposed setting (like MOV-MOVing past an enemy and just hoping their shot misses) but it's generally not a good idea, of course. For oldGregg: I also think there's some confusion about how you're defining direct template weapons. PanO's simply light on direct template weapons, and also lacks a lot of the synergizing rules that help direct template weapons succeed (such as smoke and Impetuous.) I noticed you linked a bunch of TAGs with Direct Template Weapons in your example... Which, of course, is pretty irrelevant because you're never featuring piles of TAGs in any one army list. Citing a pile of TAGs and saying "look at all the flamethrowers" is like building a list with an Avatar, a Charontid and a Skiavoros and saying "look at all the Sepsitor." It just doesn't work that way when you're actually playing the game, no more than fielding 2 Auxilia and a Santiago is even remotely similar to fielding 4 Mutts and 2 Kum.
Yeah, don't get me wrong. I think PanOceania can get away with running slightly lighter on SWC than in the past thanks to the additions from Varuna, but I am 100% with @barakiel on the importance of winning F2F for PanOceania. Because we are still very light on the systems which the game provides to bypass the need for winning F2F engagements to progress game objectives.
I believe both of these statements are utter nonsense.The second one winning by a small margin, just taking the price for complete bollocks by the skin of it's teeth.
Doesn't really change that OldGregg is by large correct. It seems like there´s quite a bit of cherry-picking which factions to compare to for each tool. Yeah, you don't have as much smoke as Ariadna (I know, you only have one source), you don't have as much White Noise as Nomads, you don't have as much camo and hiding as Shas, and you don't have as much direct template weapons as, I don't know... Tohaa? - but you've got enough that for most of these tools there are sufficient options. You can make use of Auxilia Auxbots and not have to risk sacking orders or utility when the flamer dies, there's no sectorial in Pan-O that doesn't have TO camo, you can get Eclipse even if it doesn't let you MSV2 through smoke it'll cover your ass to the objective guaranteed, and there's no shortage of impact templates what so ever. That most of these tools also often feature on TAGs is a bonus. I don't mean to be the one to say "suck it up and like what you have" because, I mean, I'd be damned if I can answer why Guarda are so expensive and there's a lot of that in Infinity where the design funnels you away from certain options, but "PanO can't have nice things" is starting to sound like Uncle Scrooge complaining about a lack of money.
To be fair, I don't think anyone is really saying 'Pan O doesn't have nice things' here? Just saying that the PanO approach to SWC is a bit different.
I don't see how that statement has been qualified, unfortunately. It's not like the non-low tech factions have access to Sniper Rifles as a cheap and fairly effective ARO option, but basically; how is Pan-O more high-SWC hungry than Aleph, Yu Jing or Combined?
This. PanO's thing is being really good at FTF BS fights. If you're not maximising your SWC to set yourself up to be dominant in that sphere, you're not playing to PanO's strengths. It's not their only thing, but it's what they do best: if you're reduced to a situation where you can't reliably win FTF BS fights then it's a bad day at the office. SWC is mostly - but not entirely - about weapons that are really good at winning FTF BS fights. I don't think it's actually more hungry than Aleph, YJ or CA. But it was - in a lot of common builds - very SWC reliant: losing critical SWC pieces could result in being left without good options. This isn't unheard of in other factions either, but it's less of a commonly experienced issue.
Ariadna has the Ojotnik, which is a SWC free "sniper" rifle. They also have a number of profiles with just a Sniper Rifle at 0.5 SWC. Haqq also has the Sniper Rifle at 0.5 SWC. So, the cheap factions DO have access to Sniper Rifles as a cheap and fairly effective ARO option, usually on Camo markers.
I think you may be forgetting the Multi weaponry that is nearly nonexistent in both of your faction examples. Sure, the range band is a bit better on a sniper rifle, but the functional application of a multi-weapon is typically much more universally useful. PanO has plenty of access to this, as well as access to a ABH sniper if they really wanted to. To be clear, PanO has a lot of access to MULTI weaponry for 0 swc. Not really sure what @Mahtamori was saying there, but I thinks its fair to say he was probably thinking about Multi Snipers, which PanO has a crazy amount of access to, including one of the best in the game.
Simply put: PanO troops are less flexible. Look at the faction's MSV beat sticks: We have the Asura, the Charontid, and the Aquila. hell, let's throw in the Hsien for good measure. On a whole – the Aquila has less profiles, no LT option on his SWC option and overall less skills than his counter faction's equals. The Asura can spend less SWC, and increase flexibility by taking a HD+ while retaining her LT status. While the Charontid can forgo his MSV to perform a different role, his MSV3 non-SWC options still pack a greater punch compared to his Aquila counterpart, all while gaining that valuable LT order. If you're taking on of these big-boys, you're always going to take the HMG Aquila, while this may not always be true for the other options. The Aquila is almost always forced into spending that 2 SWC to be effective, but you'll see about the same mileage with less SWC out of his cross faction comparables. Now don't take this as me complaining – I don't mind PanO design space, the main issue that makes them more SWC hungry than other factions is the combi rifle. Generally in PanO, if you're not taking a SWC weapon on a trooper, you're probably taking a combi rifle on it. Which isn't a very particularly lethal weapon. Look at the Father Knight for example.
With this I agree. PanO tends to shoot its problems out of the table, and its SWC options to do so tend to be at least somewhat SWC heavy. It has much less options to circunvent problems than more toolboxy factions, with few exceptions. The MSV3 comparation is terrible though, because ALL the MSV3 troops are bad, everywhere. In large part because of how expensive MSV3 is in the first place.
+1 to the players with reading comprehension. I play a lot of PanOceania, because I love them. It takes no effort to convince me that PanOceania is good. But I also know, through 500+ games, that you need to invest in enough guns to compensate for a relative shortage of other tools. Not a complete shortage of other tools, but a relative shortage. When I see players tossing 20+ smoke templates in the course of 3 turns, it's almost like we're playing completely different game systems. That's not PanO, so we invest elsewhere. And when I see comments like "there's no sectorial in Pan-O that doesn't have TO camo..."
This is what I was debating. Look! Another Warcor deriding players he doesn’t agree with. So do most factions. Granted, PanO leans more on this, and does it better. Doesn’t mean you aren’t wrong in the first quote. Again. The first time you brought this up, you were less specific, making it seem like PanO has to try hard to get, or cannot get, access to these tools. I think this is mostly wrong.
No no no PanO and Yu Jing, etc, DO NOT have access to Sniper Rifles is what I was writing. Theirs are MULTI Sniper Rifles. Ariadna do have the cheap Shock versions.
Well, there's the semi-cheap ABH sniper in Vanilla and I/OS (which I preferred when it was irregular!) but yes, PanO/YJ/Aleph etc don't have much in the way of long range, low SWC firepower, especially for AROs.
It's just one of many and possibly the most blatant. I could easily expand the argument and do a breakdown of TO HI, AD pieces, and even most LI. I disagree about the MSV 3 sentiment though. It has it's uses. The Aquila sports a host of it's own problems but thats not solely because of MSV3
This is a topic where we can actually introduce data to support the discussion. I did some digging in ARMY, trying to assess each army's access to tools that can exist in place of direct, BS-based face-to-face rolls. I broke that range of tools down into four categories: How many units in the army have Direct Template Weapons? Includes Chain Rifles, flamethrowers, nanopulsers, pulsars, e/marats, etc. How many units in the army have Antipersonnel Mines, e/maulers, Drop Bears, Mad Traps, Koalas? How many units in the army have Camo, TO Camo, Limited Camo. How many units in the army have Smoke Grenades, Eclipse Grenades, Smoke Grenade Launchers? Note that I did not count generic mercs such as the Liberto or Krakot, unless this was their "home" faction (Lunah in ISS, Krakot in MAF, etc.) Totaling the data: PanO, with 4 Sectorials worth of available units, is second to last in total count. They're ahead of Tohaa, a faction with zero Sectorials' worth of additional releases. PanO's behind Yu Jing, a faction with only two Sectorials' worth of supplemental releases. I think it's pretty conclusive that PanO has heavily restricted access to tactical "workarounds". This data doesn't take into account the point cost or AVA of the platforms these tools are mounted on. The Guarda de Assaulto's dispenses smoke for 49 points and 1 Regular Order. With that cost, you can buy 8 Galwegians / 8 morlocks / 8 Shaolin / 3 Daturazi / 3 Myrmidons / 4 Mutts + 2 Kum who dispense smoke with their Impetuous Orders for free. Other interesting points: ALEPH's data gets skewed by Nanopulsers, of course. Steel Phalanx keeps them strong in the smoke department. No surprises with Ariadna. Nomads stay true to the idea that they're pretty dang good at most ways of playing the game, with healthy (if not downright dominant) offerings for each category. CA is surprisingly healthy in diversity, though of course they're generally paying more for their tools than other factions are. The presence of direct templates, mine launcher, TO camo, etc on their TAGs and costliest Heavy Infantry makes this data seem kinder than it actually is for them. Haqq is surprisingly low, but their data also doesn't reflect a unit like Mutts who have smoke and two different kinds of DTW all on one profile.
