Super Jump Impetuous

There are some cases where Move + Jump or Jump + Move would actually get your further than a long-skill jump. Specifically if a Dog Warrior is in a building, or the nearest enemy is, then they'd have to Move (while prone) through the door to get to the target.

There are plenty of goofy situations that can arise if you play with the strict, RAW interpretation, while allowing jump/climb to be used as a short skill by the models with the appropriate abilities, always works to shorten the path between the impetuous model and it's target.

 

I think we are all making this more complicated then it needs to be.

With impetuous we jump, if it is faster. I think we all agree here.

"Impetuous Order: Direction of Movement
When executing a Move as part of an Impetuous Order, the trooper must move towards the nearest enemy figure by the most direct route possible.

The nearest enemy figure is the one that can be reached in the least number of Orders, even if that figure is not in LoF. Jump or Climb skills must be used if that would shorten the route."

"As shown by the Impetuous Order Chart, an Impetuous (or Extremely Impetuous) trooper can substitute the combination of the mandatory Common Skill Move + [allowed Skill] for the Entire Order Skills Climb or Jump if these are necessary to fulfill his obligation to advance towards the nearest enemy.

In this case, as it would when using Move, the movement declared with Climb or Jump must be the entirety of the first value of the trooper's MOV, and must be directed towards the nearest enemy figure, or towards the enemy Deployment Zone without retreating unless forced to by terrain."

Super jump modifies jump to a short skill, it is not valid to use jump as a short skill. per the rules above. unless you combine both moves for a larger jump per the super jump rules.


SUPER-JUMP AUTOMATIC SKILL
Movement, Optional.
REQUIREMENTS
EFFECTS

• This Special Skill alters the user's Jump Skill from an Entire Order Skill to a Short Movement Skill.
• It also allows the user to jump vertically, diagonally or horizontally as many inches as the first value of his MOV Attribute.
• Super-Jump allows its user to declare other Short Movement Skills or Short Skills (Jump + BS Attack, for example) while jumping in the air.
• The user may declare the Jump Skill as an Entire Order to add up both his MOV values into one single mighty jump.
• However, as with the Jump Skill, the user cannot benefit from Partial Cover MODs while in the air. The user of Super-Jump may benefit from Partial Cover MODs (assuming all other requirements are met) while on the ground, at the beginning and end of the jump."

Additionally Super jump is optional. you can either jump 6 with super jump "OFF" or jump 10 with super jump "ON"

regardless of anything else we just entire order jump, in this case you get to decide if you want to jump 6 or 10.

Personally, i would turn it off most of the time for impetuous movement. less likely to jump into someone to get shot.

 

In the sense of Impetuous, Optional isn't a factor since you are given rules of how to move that override the ability to make choices.

 

There doesn't seem to be wording to say you must use your special skills to get into base contact... otherwise Yuan Yuan would have to AD as close to enemy units as possible.

 

What you are saying with that sentence is that any model on a roof between 1-3" from the edge is "forced to declare" a jump 4" forward and fall down because "declaring en Entire Order Jump would shorten the route"; in that case here compared to : Move 1-3" forward, Entire Order Climb, more orders Moving...

And we know that we don't need to play it like that. So therefore no, we don't need to play it that "every trooper must Entire Order Jump whenever that shorten route".

We do play it that you can move short of your first MOV, then next order jump/climb.

Having Super Jump doesn't change that interpretation. You can Entire Jump your whole first MOV if terrain forces you to do so to be quicker. If terrain doesn't force you to, then you can simply walk to the edge and prepare to jump/climb. If a model is on a building, you can move to the base of the building and prepare to regular jump/climb next order.

 

As the FAQ says, "or where stated in the rules".
Example of a rule where it is stated is this one :
"During an Impetuous Order a trooper can never move in a Prone state so he will automatically stand up at the beginning of the mandatory Move, or at the start of a Jump or Climb."
Because of that FAQ, they are the only troopers allowed to stand up at the start of a jump or climb, and only during that Impetuous phase.

 

But how would you choose which unit that you are required to do that towards in that case? Since AD is deploying the unit such an interpretation would imply that you need to deploy all Impetuous units as close as possible to an enemy trooper.

 

Thank you, I missed that part!

And where is the justification for that? Why do we simply ignore this entire text? With the word "must" in bold.

"The nearest enemy figure is the one that can be reached in the least number of Orders, even if that figure is not in LoF. Jump or Climb skills must be used if that would shorten the route."

 

We don't.

It's a question of When that must applies not Whether it does. This let's both parts of the test stand.

Situation. We're ~2" away from the edge of a building. There are two paths available to the closest enemy trooper who is just below the wall. The first is over the wall and into B2B by jumping and falling, this will take <4" of Movement. The second is back off the building and down around it by Move+Moving down a ladder, this will take <16" of movement.

Order 1. The Impetuous rules permit you to Move less than your full Move if you reach B2B will terrain that forces you to Jump to continue Moving. So we do that, and Move 2" to the edge of the roof. By doing so the Trooper as fulfilled its obligation to continue moving towards the closest enemy trooper. The Impetuous model declares no further orders that turn.

Order 2. We're now B2B with the edge. The only way to continue moving towards the enemy trooper is to Jump. So the Impetuous trooper jumps to their death because this is the way shortest path.

By doing this we've chosen the shortest path and one in which we are forced to declare Jump. Thus we have applied both the we "must Jump if it would shorten the route" clause and have also applied the "can move shorter than maximum" clause.

By forcing a Jump at order 1 you deny the "can move shorter than maximum" from operating.

 

But only if that's the most direct route (by number of orders), right? And it's not. If the choice is backtrack and take 2 orders, move to the edge to take 2 orders, or jump over the edge to take 1 order, how are you fulfilling the text: "The nearest enemy figure is the one that can be reached in the least number of Orders, even if that figure is not in LoF. Jump or Climb skills must be used if that would shorten the route" if you choose anything other than jump?

 

I chose 2" because it's clear that a 4" move trooper can Jump over the wall in a single Entire Order declaration.

But what about a trooper at ~3". At 2.9" they'll clear the wall, at 3.1" they won't (so would be permitted to Move into B2B with the wall and stop after Moving 3.1"). The problem is that you can't know the difference before declaration. So nothing stops someone affected by the ordinary effects of cognitive biases mistakenly guessing the wrong way during declaration (this isn't cheating, but an inevitable failure of human perception).

The only way to interpret Impetuous that doesn't result in that clusterfuck is to interpret the 'can move less than maximum' as a universally available exception to any circumstance that requires Jumping as part of a fastest path. In these circumstances you are still forcing the use of Jump on the path and using that to determines the fastest path.

Basically, "in practice, they only need to jump when B2B" cleanly resolves the issue in an objective way. It avoids any arguments about whether or not a trooper is required to Jump: the occasions when it is required are 100% clear.

 

IF that were a requirement you would choose which one you want to go next to. same as if you can have two enemy troops equal distance to you, it would make sense each troop on the board is equal distance from an AD troop.

thankfully that is not a rule, skills that are optional do not need to be used. nowhere in the rules for impetuous do the rules state you must use optional skills and equipment.

we do not NEED to use super jump, we do not NEED to AD next to an enemy troop.

 

The game relies on communication with your opponent, trying to figure out things as they are the most reasonable.

Trying to figure out if a Jump is faster is not any different than a Move, you just have to try and figure it out best you can with your opponent. This is not different than trying to place a mine with a camo token at 8.5" and wondering if it's intuitive or not.

There is no way you can justify ignoring a sentence as clear as the one that explicitely tells you that you must (it's even in bold) use Jump if it would shorten the route.

"The nearest enemy figure is the one that can be reached in the least number of Orders, even if that figure is not in LoF. Jump or Climb skills must be used if that would shorten the route."

As for the sentence that says that you can move less than the maximum if you reach terrain that would require you to Jump or Climb, I think it's pretty damn obvious that it's intended things that you couldn't simply vault over at the start of the order, otherwise Jumping at the start of the order would've been the shortest possible route and you would've been required to do so.

The example is there if for example you had a 3" gap and you were 2" away from it and had to move to it and then Jump to cross it to reach your opponent in the least amount of orders possible. Or if you had to walk up to a wall and Climb it as you couldn't do it from the start of your order.

"A trooper using an Impetuous Order can move a distance shorter than the maximum only if he reaches base contact with an enemy, or if he enters an area of Special Terrain that impairs his Movement or forces him to declare Jump or Climb in order to keep moving."

The only time you'll be reaching this clause is if through the course of figuring out that the shortest course of action is to stop to that terrain to initiate a Jump or a Climb, this clause is not relevant if you could've simply Jumped over it because it would've been a faster way.

 

I disagree that I'm ignoring the clause you keep repeating. My interpretation does enforce the use of Jump/Climb to shorten the route.

It just also applies the 'can use less than maximum' generously, rather than permitting it only in extremely marginal edge cases.

It's also worth noting this section:
"As shown by the Impetuous Order Chart, an Impetuous (or Extremely Impetuous) trooper can substitute the combination of the mandatory Common Skill Move + [allowed Skill] for the Entire Order Skills Climb or Jump if these are necessary to fulfill his obligation to advance towards the nearest enemy." Even if you read 'can substitute' as 'must substitute' (which we probably should because of the 'must clause that follows') the line "if these are necessary to fulfill his obligation to advance towards the nearest enemy": unless you are B2B with the terrain Jump is not necessary to continue advancing along the path to the closest enemy trooper.

And while I agree that the interpretation I espouse does leave edge cases (the ~3" gap you describe) it reduces them to practical insignificance (and generally to circumstances where the 'cool factor' of maybe making the jump outways any potential negative experience).

This is why I think it's the best interpretation: where best results in the cleanest and most harmonious gameplay.

 

I think it's fairly obvious that the stopping clause is meant to be used only when e.g.:
* Kuang Shi is about 6" from edge.
* Shortest path is Move and then Jump. This is also most direct path. Long way around is over 3 orders.
* Kuang Shi don't need to Jump first order, instead Moves closer to the edge.
* Second short skill Kuang Shi is 2" from edge and 3" from enemy.
* Kuang Shi Moves again.
* Here the stopping rule comes into play, allowing the Kuang Shi to be allowed to stop so they can wait for the next order instead of needing to do weird stuff with the remaining 2" of movement.

Without the stopping clause a computer trying to solve it, it'll probably crash, while a human might delude themselves that they're allowed to change trajectory mid movement and point it to the long way around.

 

I have been away from the forum for quite some time, is it the general opinion hat this point is unsolved ?

 

General handling on the game table is to ignore the restriction and treat Short Skill Superjump the same way as Short Skill Move with C+.
I've never seen anyone playing it differently or even discussing it. Most people aren't aware this isn't RAW.

RAW it's "illegal".
But then again, Impetuous can be a bit of a clusterfuck to figure out with Jump/Move/Climb being available under the current requirements.
Seen multiple discussions if a trooper could use a suicidal jump to reach a target in 3 Orders instead of 4 turn 1.
Needs a bit of work with N4, no way around it.

 

Many of us have expressed that we think it's unsolved, and I don't think anyone has said that they think it's solved. @ijw has said "RAW you can't, but hardly anyone plays it that way." So I'm pretty confident that the general opinion is that it's unsolved.

 

Agreed, but then we've got the problem that many people think Impetuous WB are a huge problem...

...and can you blame them when people aren't playing them with all of the disadvantages they are supposed to have?

 

*insert random git gud comment*

There's loads of strong choices in the game. Warbands are good, but they're mostly point efficient supporting cast rather than the stars of a show.

Doesn't really matter at this point if nobody knows about it, does it?
N4 is around the corner and the forum won't forget. If Impetuous doesn't get streamlined and neither it, nor Warbands, nor cheap main armaments like Chainrifles and SMGs do get points or rule adjustments the first FAQ (which will hopefully follow a couple months after N4) is that's the point to revisit it.
Until then it's probably best to TO to handle the issue with a judgement call.