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Stratuscloud Clarification question

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Wormy, May 28, 2019.

  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    added to the unsolved question list
     
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  2. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you!
     
  3. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Since Stratuscloud does not follow the rules of disposable weapons, and instead follows the rules of one-use equipment such as Albedo, can you please remove the Disposable trait from the equipment? All it does is cause needless confusion and bloat. @Koni
     
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  4. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    Well they added it to the FAQ. So i guess it is clear now how it is supposed to work.
     
    #124 CabalTrainee, Jul 11, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2019
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  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Yep
    Answers b and d
     
  6. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I don't think it's answer D, as it can't be used any number of times. None of D-F are actually true.
     
  7. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    There is no requirement that prevent you to activate this skill again if you reload it. However if you try to execute the effects for a second time, you will try to activate the Stratuscloud but for the cancelation clause it won't work.
    There is nothing that stop you for reloading and using it again, but the state will only trigger once.

    As you see the FAQ state that the State cannot be activated for a second time, not the equipment. If you try to do that you will only waste 2 orders.
     
  8. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    If any given model can only activate the StratusCloud State once per game, why is the StratusCloud Equipment reloadable in the first place? Treat it like Albedo and call it good!

    The Active Albedo state wording is much less likely to cause confusion!
     
  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I agree that there are other ways to do it, in fact in this same thread I adressed that. I'm just explaining how this works after the new FAQ, don't shoot the messenger :P

    From the FAQ 1.7 thread:
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    @Ogid The Unloaded state does a poor job of reminding players the Stratuscloud state can't be activated by a particular trooper again.
    1. The Unloaded state is only referring to the numbers of uses left for a piece of equipment the trooper carries. It doesn't directly speak to what conditions have been met regarding a particular game state.
    2. What if a trooper or future trooper carries more than one disposable piece of equipment.
    3. What if the troopers gear is reloaded. The marker is removed so there is no longer an indicator the game state was used once already.
    So if CB's intention was to use the disposable and Unloaded state to track this kind of thing... I'd say they didn't think it all the way through. This doesn't even mention the confusion added as most people expect a reloaded piece of equipment to be reusable. Although that expectation would be removed as more and more gear works like this.
     
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  11. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Just make up a marker that indicates (to you and your opponent) that the clouds are gone.
    [​IMG]
    Sometimes making up your own markers makes it easier to keep track of things than writing everything down on paper or trying to remember it.
     
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  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Or a double-sided marker (like most of us use for Impersonation). StratusCloud State lasts for the activating player's active turn and the activating player's ARO turn.
     
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  13. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    For this same thread, before the FAQ:
    The Disposable (1) without being able to use the state again is a bit strange for being the only effect in the game like that, but it kind of make sense because albedo can't be activated in the middle of a game, but Stratuscloud can.

    The big adavantage of having already beaten this topic to death is I don't even have to write now XDD. This is how I think the rules should handle this kind of effects
    Did you think we are done with you, Stratuscloud? Nevah!
    [​IMG]
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    This.
     
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  15. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the timing of when either Albedo or Stratuscloud state is activated should have any baring on the other rules surrounding them.

    What's the difference between forced activation at the beginning of the game on turn 1 versus choosing to activate on turn 1-3. These are simply activation clauses and the both can easily share the same rules regarding their number of uses.

    I see this purely as a design choice:
    1. Reloadable and Reuseable items use the disposable trait. Limited use items use disposable with an appropriate clause preventing reloading. (this should include Albedo)
    2. Reloadable and Reuseable items use the disposable trait. Limited use items do not use disposable, instead having an appropriate clause limiting them. (like Albedo).
    I really don't care which one the game wants to use. But I'd opt for #1.
     
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  16. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    This would fill in my "Equipment (can only trigger once) -> State" that is the way that make more sense to me. This way the state won't have to include clauses like "Once this state is cancelled, the player cannot activate it again."
    However I'd use a different label than disposable to don't mix them up.
     
  17. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I want to make sure I understand correctly before commenting further. You want the Stratuscloud equipment to be labelled not as disposable, but rather (a new name to identify that it can't be reloaded and has a limited number of uses)1. The Stratuscloud state to then be removed entirely and its rules/effects placed under the equipment instead? Similar to how various grenades create their own zone once used?
     
  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Not exactly. You got right the first part: I'll avoid using disposable(1) to make it less confusing; I'll use a new label, let's say it's called "Irreplaceable", with the same wording than disposable (for both the equipment of Albedo and Stratuscloud). But not the second part, the state will remain; but only with rules about the state itslef, not about the limitations of the equipment which causes it.

    This would change the mechanic; but taking in count these states are supported by a piece of equipment, i'd also add clauses to cancel the state if the equipment is disabled (by E/M basically, because as it's not a comms equipment blackout/Isolated won't disable it)

    Baggage and Unloaded only rules disposable, so Irreplaceable couldn't be reloaded by it. To remember it, the player should note it or use any kind of marker as @daszul suggested (a new state similar to unloaded could be created, but for only 2 effects it could be overkill)

    Then we'd get a equipment with a limited number of uses; so now we can eliminate the clauses about "this effect could never ever be activated again" in the effect. Which is more coherent and leaves the design open for a future equipment for Albedo and Stratuscloud which the Disposable trait instead of Irreplaceable.

    To see the changes more easily, it'd be this:
    Irreplaceable. This weapon or Equipment has a limited amount of ammunition or uses, and one is expended every time you declare its use, regardless of the success or failure of the Roll involved. The profile indicates, by means of a figure in brackets after the Irreplaceable trait, the number of uses for that weapon or Equipment.
    STRATUSCLOUD SHORT MOVEMENT SKILL, ARO
    Irreplaceable (1), NFB, Non-Lootable, Optional
    REQUIREMENTS
    EFFECTS
    • By spending one Short Movement Skill or ARO it allows the user to enter the Stratuscloud (State) state.
    • Also, this piece of Equipment allows the user to deploy in the Stratuscloud (State) state.
    • During the game, it allows the use of the Stratuscloud (State) state.
    • This equipment is affected by the Disabled state.
    Activation
    • Automatic during the Deployment Phase (see stratuscloud (Equipment)
    • This state can be activated by expending one Short Movement Skill or ARO (see stratuscloud (Equipment).
    Effects
    This Stratuscloud template will move with its bearer while they are in Stratuscloud state.
    A trooper in this state doesn't suffer the effects of the Low Visibility and Saturation Zone this piece of Equipment generates, whether it is their own state or another trooper's.
    However, any other trooper inside the Circular Template will suffer the effects of the Low Visibility and Saturation Zones, unless possessing any Special Skill or piece of Equipment that ignores them.
    In the same way, any Skill, Special Skill, piece of Equipment or BS Attack which LoF crosses the Stratuscloud template must apply the effects and MODs imposed by Low Visibility and Saturation Zones.
    • The Stratuscloud state will be applied during the entire Order in which it was activated.
    Cancellation
    • If activated during the Deployment Phase, the Stratuscloud state is automatically cancelled at the end of the second Player Turn, removing the Stratuscloud Template from the game table.
    • If activated by an Order or ARO, the Stratuscloud state is automatically cancelled at the end of the following Player Turn, removing the Stratuscloud Template from the game table.
    • A trooper in Stratuscloud state can cancel this state by declaring so, without spending Order or ARO.
    • If Stratuscloud (equipment) enters in the disabled state, the Stratuscloud state is automatically cancelled.
     
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  19. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    It definitely makes sense to use a new term. For every skill that can't be reloaded the rules will need to repeat that written exception. That can add up. Of course there's always that delicate balancing act between adding a new rule vs adding only a few exceptions. In this case I'd add the the new skill. I really don't like exceptions.

    With regards to changing the mechanic, I'd probably need to think about it more to form an opinion. Not all active effects are represented by a game state marker, ODD for example. Its cancellation results in a marker lol. There's a lot to consider and possibly streamline here.

    I also find the use of Stratuscloud as a Short Movement Skill strange. I'd really need to sit back and review the entire spectrum of skills and equipment first. Sort them, identify patterns, exceptions, etc.
     
    #139 Ginrei, Jul 13, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2019
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  20. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, this is how I'd do it, the mechanic works right now.

    I'm fine with it, it's a movement skill but it doesn't have the movement label. It's a way to say it can be used with Short Skills (Activate Albedo + BS attack for example)