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Strategos Lvl 2 and executive use of command tokens

Discussion in 'Rules' started by HotFreshTofu, Dec 13, 2020.

  1. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Seriously?

    That effect of Stratego mimics the Executive use of Command Token. It is a "free" CT per turn. Simple as that.
     
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  2. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    upload_2020-12-14_8-54-47.png

    How many LT Orders are changed into Regular ones for a Regular model with (LT +1 Order, Strategos L1/L2)?

    Without any Strategos level he would generate 1x Regular + 2x LT Orders. With any Strategos level, does he generate 2x Reg + 1 LT Order, or does he generate 3 Regular Orders?


    It's yet another case where an editor should've stepped in, noticed and removed the ambiguity. I wish CB would pay somebody who understands Infinity and is a professional editor to do a proper editing pass over the rules and cooperate with the rules design team to remove at least the most egregious inconsistent / ambiguous phrasing.

    The same copy-paste phrasing structure should be used for rules which are supposed to mean the same thing. It's a mess when we can't even reliably infer rule intent because phrasing is all over the place.
     
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  3. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Why the heck you guys always flood every discussion with cross reference, especially when you were already given an answer (in the waiting of the FAQs document)?
    Apart from making impossible to find ANYTHING in the Rules section, you keep creating confusion and misreadings.
     
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  4. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Ah, so you have no basis to your answer and came in only to spam about others who try to make sense of the rules and are looking to other rules for similar phrasing? Cool story, bruh.

    Also, to your point. I can spend 5 CTs (with a LT +1 Command Token) to move 5 guys between groups if I wanted to.

    Why on Earth then would you take SL2 to mean a singular free use of that ability, instead of plural, as indicated by similar phrasing of other rules?
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Both the first bullet of Strategos and the third uses singular form for what they do (as does Minelayer).
    "the lieutenant special order", "a regular order"
    "a trooper"
    "the deployable weapon or equipment"

    But, even so, someone who might consider it obvious that Minelayer can only place one deployable item may decide it is also obvious that a Strategos user may move several troopers - or vice versa (or even more exotic interpretations like one per combat group). Personally I think all above three examples are clearly singular form; you can convert one LT order at most, you may move one trooper for free at most, and you may place one device at most. Obviously, not everyone agrees with that narrow interpretation.

    (Brb, checking Spanish)

    Edit: Not being a Spanish speaker is a bit of an... issue when trying to read Spanish, but it seems to me that Spanish rules say instead of "move a trooper" to say "move one trooper", which is more specific that it is one single trooper.
     
    #25 Mahtamori, Dec 14, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2020
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  6. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    @Mahtamori
    How do you access the Spanish N4 wiki? I can't see a language toggle and the Spanish CB main page still takes me to the English wiki.
     
  7. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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  8. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    You need to cool down and stop crossreferincing every question, bringing up everything in every discussion. This is not good for anyone.
    We are already on the topic (and for WE i mean the FAQs team, just for reference) and the forum already got a "this is how it shoud be played" answer form the appointed person.

    BTW, you can spend CT for Executive Use multiple times during the same turn, so yes. You can move up to 5 models.

    And the Lieutenant (+1 Order) skill is not even in the book, so it is no wonder that it isn't addressed in the texts.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That is the only tool we have of supporting an argument.
    Got a link to that response so I can add it to my post tracking these things?
     
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  10. HotFreshTofu

    HotFreshTofu Well-Known Member

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    It seems people are really stuck on "a trooper", but that is precisely the language used for executive use of command tokens, which we know can move more than 1 trooper. (because it goes on to say we can use as many command tokens as we want).

    in fact, we could also argue you cant move more than 1 trooper with command tokens because it says "an allied trooper" if we apply the logic used to argue that Strat lvl 2 can only move 1.

    The minelayer example is a great counter argument, though. I don't think anyone would argue that we can place multiple mines, and the "it goes without saying" argument is reasonably applies to Strat lvl 2.

    On the other hand, why cant I move as many models as I want? Skills like Free agent have been removed from the game, and may have been intentionally wrapped up into strategos.

    strategos also lost the ability of denying your opponents reserve models, so it may be getting boosted with this ability.


    so, I'm just going to play it as a single trooper per player turn since that makes the most sense (and gives your opponent the benefit of the doubt, which is always the way to go IMO), but I still feel it wasn't entirely clear.
     
  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Haven't you already brought to attention in this discussion that the command token use is "for each command token spent"?

    For Each commandToken As Integer In commandTokenSpent
    Move Trooper
    Next​
    Take Cookie
     
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  12. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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  14. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    How is it not clear? You have 2 Lt orders without chance to differentiate them. So you change both.
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    "The sign says I may take the cookie in the bowl, but the bowl has two cookies, can I take both?"
    "There's no way to differentiate between the cookies"

    The issue is whether the rule limits conversion of LT orders in the case where you have more than one LT order, but the answer was that there is no difference between the orders. (Note that, complicating how to interpret such an indirect answer, relatively fresh in mind we had an N3 question on the topic of several LT orders and whether Executive Order or Chain of Command skills would allow the use of an LT order generated by an LT2 and where it was among other things answered that there is no way to distinguish the two orders)
     
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  16. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    It's definitely not helpful when you're being this dismissive. You need to stop this, it's not good for anyone. Definitely not to the image of the product you seem to be a community organizer / representative for (Warcor).

    Who are you again? How am I supposed to know this exactly? Where is the "FAQ team" and whoever is helping them listed for reference?

    But you won't link to it, to remove doubt, right?

    So after all of the above you reiterate my point. OK, I guess?

    It's a huge wonder to me how we even manage to play this game, at this point.
     
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  17. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    You can move ONE TROOPER in each of your Tactical Phases. When you do this by expending Command Tokens you can do it multiple times because the Command Token rules specifically say that you can do so multiple times:
     
  18. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    For the avoidance of doubt, Strategos L1 can convert ALL of the Trooper's Lieutenant Special Orders.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Thank you. That's perfectly clear. I'll add that to the list.
     
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  20. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    This should really say "a single Trooper" then.
     
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