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Still alive?

Discussion in 'Nomads' started by Ghost87, Jun 30, 2021.

  1. Zmaj

    Zmaj Active Member

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    I don't understand the KHD Intruder profile and I hate how they threw out LT option in favor of giving CJC new powercreep toys and option to mix and match FT as they like. N4 CJC seem flavourless compared to N3.
     
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  2. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    it's not great an expensive as hell, but its the closest to playable as the nuns get.

    Yeah, paying 108 points for something that dies to a single DTW/shotgun template and compared to the alternatives it's not great and expensive as hell, but its the closest to playable as the nuns get.
     
  3. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    What? Intruder HMG was a god through N3. With ITS introducing Forward Deployment any profile (except the Sniper) was buffed. Also Intruder LT was the best LT Nomad choice for hunting LT missions. Guess it's a meta thing. Where I'm from Intruder HMG was king through and through. That without baiting as I never did this myself and never met anyone who did this throughout the country regardless of event size.

    Sombra is undeniably a contender for Intruder's spot, but so is Vostok and a Gecko. Depends on what you want to achieve. Sombra is much better for Specialist missions, but when it comes to killing MSV2 is still better than climbing plus. Still it's funny how CB handicapped Intruder by removing short range profiles, all the while creating a forward deployed short range assault unit to fill the role. Sombra ended up doing fluff Intruder's job better then the Intruder...
     
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  4. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Sombra is a trash unit that is straight up UNPLAYABLE in corregidor and mostly useless in vanilla, unlike HMG Intruder who still has a valuable role of cleaning the map from Helots, TR bots, Noctifiers and Caterans
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't call it lazy to have specific discounts or penalties to units or abilities for specific factions if it is done to promote those factions' list building in areas that are meant to be their strengths. Kind of like they've done with Haqq by giving them almost unique access to Doctor+3 everywhere for the longest time. It builds identity and promotes branching out to try new things, you know.

    I always found the Nomad community's lack of appreciation for the Sombras fascinating. In terms of pure stats and gear, Zhencha and Dart are very similar and I'd rank the Sombras to be the better of the three and indeed Sombras do seem to have a discount that the former two does not. I guess stiff competition is the cause.
     
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  6. fatherboxx

    fatherboxx Mission control, I'm coming home.

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    Zhencha is better (full infiltration, FO for cards and panzerfaust for being caught off guard) and Dart is one of the best units in the game in general.
    Every list has two morans so the base need for infiltration specialists is filled - past this yes, the competition is too strong, in cheaper infiltrators and droptroops.
     
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  7. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I play both IA and CJC as my main armies, and although I would take a Zencha every game, I would not take a Sombra in CJC. THey have strong points but the FO Zencha is cheaper, has equivalent/better weapons for a midfield specialist, can risk going beyond the midfield... and is a budget HI in a HI sectorial. We have quite competing and capable midfielders in CJC that mean the Sombra is overkill/not really needed.

    TBH, the same reason why even the FD Hulang sees use; IA lacks midfielders and has to use what it has. If we had access to anything else like a proper skimirmisher, a Gulang, even a Long-Ya, man, the Zencha would see little use either.
     
  8. nazroth

    nazroth 'well known Nomad agitator'

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    Main Somba issue is points value. Not in comparison to what Sombra does, but just the value. Being a successful Nomad player since late N2 I grew to categorize Nomad units in three point value categories:
    Below 15 points,
    15-30 points,
    Above 30 points,

    What I expect from these might vary between profiles and exact points cost, but in general I expect stuff below 15 points to be orders providers, or road blockers, sometimes with a twist. 15-30 points is blood and sweat of every list. There's skirmishers, trade pieces, specialists, AD suicide pieces, TR bots, Sensors - most of good stuff is here.
    Now above 30 points is where I expect a troop to really make a difference. Like Spitfire Hellcat, or an Intruder HMG, or a Kriza, or a TAG... the points cost difference here might be huge but the truth is Nomads being Nomads and very strong in 15-30 group I will not have much points to invest in above 30 group. Thus Sombra is outclassed by much cheaper specialists and infiltrators in from group 15-30, while also overshadowed by much better killers from her own above 30 group.

    I was very hyped about this unit. An unhackable 'HI' with Camo and Vis MOD attack piece... fuck yeah! Always dreamed about this... except once I got it I cant find a place for it in the lists. Just doesn't make the cut. (Tested few times but didn't stole the thunder like some other expensive units do).

    Just for the record, I play Yu-Jing including sectorials as well. My approach to grouping units there is different than with Nomads. Different army, different choices and role of troops.
     
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  9. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Like I wrote, it's fascinating. Sombras ticks all check boxes for what makes a unit good in this edition: climbing plus to be able to dig out stuff like Rokots hiding on a rooftop, specialist on most profiles, camo to evade missile spam, unhackable to be able to operate inside repeater nets, NWI or better to survive a stray crit, and most importantly why I rank her head and shoulders above Zhencha/Dart; a weapon with +3 above 8" in a meta where basically everything has a DTW.
    So yeah, the fact that people use absolutes to describe how they work is very very fascinating.

    Not going to go into the uses of Zhencha on this forum, but I'd suggest that a Long Ya and a Zhencha have completely different roles and I'd probably use Zhencha more if IA had Long Ya.
     
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  10. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    You will see that I rarely use absolutes, in fact, I make it clear this is a personal opinion and experience on how I use and see such units. The point about Long-Ya in IA is more about the lack of soft/midfield defenses in that Sectorial, of which CJC has plenty. Also, the lack of attack pieces IA has in the midfield, like proper skirmishers to push forward, of which CJC has quite a few more and more efficient.

    So yes, the Sombra IS nice (would love it in IA), just simply not fitting in CJC (from my own experience and generally as well from other peoples´ comments).
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Oh, sorry. I quoted you because you didn't use absolutes. It's difficult to have a meaningful conversation when absolutes are involved :(

    P.S. I'm not saying your judgement is wrong, I'm saying it's fascinating how a unit that by all metrics and numbers should be performing at least a worthwhile role is deemed to not be good enough to bring even in the home sectorial.
     
    #171 Mahtamori, Sep 17, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
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  12. Ugin

    Ugin Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    Totally agreed.
    Comparing units or loadouts from different factions gives us some insights about how units are designed, or how their points are set.
    But still they might not coincide 100%, because different methods can be applied between different factions, I think.

    I think the problem here is the lack of designers' commentary, which explains why these factions has these units, while others don't(and vice versa).
    It might have been easier for us to understand why Evaders are so cheap, if they have tried to explain the intended mechanics of Corregidor novelties.

    Anyhow, let's not break the forum rules about the restriction of reverse engineering the points settings.

    Interestingly enough, I have the exact same impressions with you regarding sombras, but still the point cost makes me hesitant when I try putting it in the list.

    I think it's because I don't feel like it's neccesary to put eggs in one basket(a Sombra), while I can do similar things with two or three baskets. Baskets here I mean Bandits or Morans, who can perfectly fit into the roles of terror troops or button-pushers. They don't have Climbing+ or high ARM/BTS value, but they serve enough regarding the roles which Sombra can do.

    I might try fielding her some time, but to me it doesn't seem so evident that Sombra will do better than others.
     
    #172 Ugin, Sep 17, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2021
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  13. Pander22

    Pander22 Well-Known Member

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    Man, to me the Sombra is the ultimate Nomad unit, It can force all sorts of bad decisions onto someone and then hide itself afterwards either in camo or up a tree, or both!

    I start all my lists with the spec ops version of it but if I were to build a list from the ground up I can never fit it in, But I think that has to do with my core always being filled up by the correg death star

    To me climbing plus is worth the shorter deployment as it gives you a tonne of different options to deploy in on dense tables,
    all its skills also feel super fluffy in a way that supports the unit,
    Now really the only thing making me not want to play correg is how they now feel like a top tier army and I like playing the underdogs lol,
     
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  14. Willen

    Willen Well-Known Member

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    Couldn´t agree more, and perhaps that is why I was touchy on the subject, sorry. One of the reasons why I mostly just read the forum and shake my head at the "usuals".

    It is right the Sombra should be performing. Really should. I dunno but when I see a profile around 40 points in CJC it needs to give me a LOT. Kinda what nazroth was saying, we have a lot of nice units in the 20s, and then a great unit at 50s (the Geckos). The Sombra for me then is, if I want an attack piece I will sacrifice a cheerleader and get a Gecko - if I want an utility midfielder I go Bandit + a Jaguar to preserve the regular order.
     
  15. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    There is a formula, but the Submachine Gun is 4 Points cheaper than a CR or BSG for no reason. Therefore every model with SMG is in general undercosted
     
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  16. Brokenwolf

    Brokenwolf Well-Known Member

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    To me, with the changes to shotguns having a template mode, SMGs no longer feel undercosted. Being within 8" is deadly.
     
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  17. SpectralOwl

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    I actually think Combis should go down a bit for this reason too; their only advantage over the Rifle is inside that effectively-pointless zone, since everything outside a Line Infantry will just fire a Template.
     
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  18. Triumph

    Triumph Well-Known Member

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    Depends what platform the SMG is on, if the model is supposed to use it like a midfield skirmisher, sure.

    In Jazz's case she's been given the SMG so she's disgusting value by being as cheap as possible. You would actually improve Jazz by deleting all her guns entirely and just making her even cheaper, she's not expected to fire the weapon in anger.
     
  19. SpectralOwl

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    Only in the context of Nomads, who have ridiculously-good Repeater access. SMGs are one of the best weapons for Hackers who actually move up and do work because of their AP ammo killing big HI and TAGs- a Hacker's usual prey- more quickly. Out of all current non-SWC weapons I'd only really rate a Breaker Combi as a more effective option, and those have a very steep cost attached.
     
  20. LaughinGod

    LaughinGod Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    SMG costing 5 points cheaper than combi is just ridiculous, it is the most broken weapon in the game since rework, just because how cheap it is and how CB uses it to super optimize the profiles.
     
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