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State of Tohaa

Discussion in 'Tohaa' started by Duront, Jun 30, 2019.

  1. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    The Tohaa Triumvirate, so rather 'Spiral' than 'Tohaa'.

    Sygmaa Trihedron
    : Tohaa that are now part of the CA
    Trigon: Part of the Sygmaa Trihedron that is still in resistance against the CA
    Tohaa Trinomial: (free) Tohaa "nation" - Herald race that wants to preserve the T’zechi Digester's knowledge and assist them in gaining further knowledge. ("Tohaa Faction")
    Tohaa Triumvirate: Secret Society within the Tohaa Trinomial (like some sort of Illuminati) that want the digester's knowledge at any cost for themselves.
    Spiral Corps: Mercenaries lead and financed by the Tohaa Triumvirate.
     
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  2. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    But the FAQ cleared that up Spiral Corps are humans not Tohaa ;)

    EDIT: Seriously thank you for this short summary it was really helpful
     
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  3. FireFangs

    FireFangs Space Oni

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    Spiral Corps employs humans. They are mercenaries. But with the Daedalus Gate down, they are most of the Tohaa left in the Human Sphere.
     
  4. ChoTimberwolf

    ChoTimberwolf Artichoken Friend

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    For impersonation purpose Spiral Corps count as a human army, thats where I was going with that joke
     
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  5. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Been so long since I read that book... (and I confess I never bothered to memorize most names XD).

    I don't think the EI is jealous of Aleph, because it stands to reason it didn't know there was an Aleph to begin with. The main problem, anyway, is the Tohaa (this time as a whole), since all non-"converted" ones tell all of humanity how horrible and barbarous the CA is, while the Sygmaa (captured Tohaa fighting for the EI's cause) claim nothing changed, only their leaders stopped being so and the EI regulates everything, which is not all that bad...

    All the while, Humanity mistrusts both of them, but gives the Tohaa more credibility because a) not at war with them, b) not attacked by them (by humanity's knowledge) and c) they don't have a Sexytor like the CA has (and Aleph is TERRIFIED of that thing). So the Tohaa are not trusted, but not treated as enemies.

    Then things escalated: human forces nuked a Shasvastii nest (thinking it was a CIC nexus for the CA, instead of the berserker trigger for an entire race of survival(of the species)-at-all-costs), the CA failed to secure the Digestor quickly, and humanity is aware of its value (but not, in theory, pumping it out for secrets), etc...

    Do note that the CA has prisioner camps and does not sepsitorize prisioners routinely (Shinobu Kitsune was rumoured to have escaped a CA POW camp...). At least the Morat seem to take prisioners...

    Mind you, the only way I see for the Sepsitor to work is to severe the brain's capacity to send data to the Cube, while the Cube "takes control" of the body, with the loyalties devoted to the EI (at least, until the cube is implanted into a new Lhost), so welcome to the horror of seeing yourself killing everybody and not being able to control your body... at least in the battlefield use of the Sepsitor.
     
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  6. TheRedZealot

    TheRedZealot Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I dont think this is fully accurate. The EI has sepsitorized humans and it rescued Bit and Kiss. While it might be for selfish reasons I'd argue they're at least indications the EI has some interest in potentially recruiting humanity. Its not its priority at the moment but I dont think the EI has outright ruled it out. In all the first encounters we've heard of the EI tends to show up, fuck some shit up and then go "So you want some more or like are we gonna be friends now?" Remember Humanity has encountered the EI for less than a Decade so far. Contact is still very much in the early stages.

    This would also tie in nicely to the idea that Humanity may also be a non seeker race given that they're the first the Tohaa have met that aren't definitively so.
     
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  7. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Well, there is the Trigon, so not all of CA's Tohaas (Sygmaa Trihedron) think it is okay - they are kind of a resistance.

    And a Sepsitor is like a reprogramming-device: (from the RPG)

    SEPSITOR

    Perhaps the epitome of VoodooTech is sepsitor. Named from the classic Greek septos (corruption), EI Aspects are able to use a short-range discharge of memetic viral vectors to infiltrate less sophisticated quantronic systems. What makes it truly terrifying, however, is its ability to burrow directly into human Cubes and undermine the victim’s baseline mental processes. Previous identities and loyalties are burnt out, replaced with programming dedicated
    to the EI.​
     
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  8. nehemiah

    nehemiah Well-Known Member

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    There is also the Trident: Military Arm of the Tohaa Trinomial.
     
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  9. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    I tried to name the factions with different goals.
    The Trident's goals are the same as the Trinomial's.
    But you are right, the Trinomial has three (3? with Tohaa? No shit?) subsections:
    Trident (military), Accord (internal affairs) and Trispiral (external affairs).
    Tri-Spiral... you get it?
     
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  10. FireFangs

    FireFangs Space Oni

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    As daszul stated, Sepsitorizing is NOT a good and nice thing.It's singling out exceptional individuals and basically mind controlling them to force loyalty to the EI. They reprogram your brain. It seem like a costly and difficult endeavor though, which would explain why not all prisoners go through this.

    And the people of the Sygmaa Trihedron likely haven't been put through this procedure (too many people). But Replacing your cube with one linked to the EI, to me, says it might not be full free will. Subliminal messages and information spread, apparent benevolence. I know people from the Trihedron are especially eager to fight their former kin too. Perhaps too eager. That seem less like "Let's help the EI and the CA!" and more like "Kill tohaa. For the glory of the EI." Of course, the Tohaa government doesn't exactly seem all that good either. Add the secret society of manipulative artichoke....

    At least the Helots are nice! Right?.................. We need some real nice aliens.
     
  11. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    It's just people.
    In that Tohaa are not too different from Humans:
    First of all they care for their own people,
    and some don't mind to leave some corpses on the way...
    and then there are those that care just for themselves.

    Helot's are Exalted, I think.
    And Antipodes, too?

    Damn, I want some Antipodes in Tohaa and Spiral!
     
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  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    It's the same old definition from before the RPG. What has not been explained is how rewriting the Cube alters the brain, since a basic design would be to make cubes write-only.
    Considering how complex is neurology and that the same Sepsitor works with humans and Tohaa alike, I'd bet it works directly on the Cube, and concluded that the easiest way to battlefield sepsitor is to make the Cube to control the body.


    I'd say that version is done in less battlefield conditions, and more like in the lab back at base...

    It's a combo, because you have on the one side that the EI behaves like a good administrator, not a petty tyrant... while the old Tohaa leaders claimed them to be evil incarnate, willing only the erradication of the Tohaa civilization and race. So they also want revenge because of the comrades lost against the CA, seeing that the conflict was only about the one percenters, so to speak.
    Combine that with data manipulation and you don't really need a Sepsitor, just time and for them to carry a comlog (not even a cube).

    In D&D terms, the EI would be Lawful Evil (VERY very Lawful), while Aleph might be in the Lawful Neutral or Lawful neutral+good.

    It's suspected by the playerbase, since the first contact with humans was in the planet now known as Ariadna, with the Tohaa (the "hidden schemers", at least) observing their landing, and retreating from the planet after using it for experiments.

    Mind you, this points to the Tohaa having been resisting the CA for centuries...
     
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  13. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    The point is that the brain does not work "write-only", as every act of remembering/recalling something alters that memory, as you "re-live" the memory and then rewrite this "new" memory. (That is one of the problem with prolonged questioning of eye-witnesses, and also explains why "talking" (re-living) a traumatic experience can help to ease that "pain".) => fall memories
    So yeah, I guess it only alters the cube, but that still is altering the memories/personality, and your mind can't tell the difference:
    Your consciousness can not differentiate whether a memory comes from the cube or the brain, so your idea of a "locked-in mind" in a marionette like body would not work: it is a different mind, but the mind can not tell the difference and still feels in full control of the body, and thinks it is still acting reasonable and according to its memories and experiences.
    So altering the cube is still like "brain-washing", not like a "free min" in a "remote controlled body" - at least not in that mind's own experience.
     
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  14. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    That would go against the purpose of the Cube: it is a "backup", not some sort of cyberbrain the host's brain extract information from...

    Also, there are instances of people with the bridges between the two brain hemispheres cut (surgery, supposedly to alleviate some psychological illnesses), and when isolated each side behaves slightly different...
     
  15. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Well, a purely "write-only" backup is not worth much.
    And in the brain/with memories, there is no distinction between data/files and file names.
    And as having to rewrite the whole data every second (/time interval) is inefficient, there has to be some read mechanics as well.
    But you are right, being sepsitorized must mean that not only the cube data is altered, but that the read mechanics and especially the priority of the two sources must be changed.
    My main point is simply that the mind is unable to realise this.
     
    #175 daszul, Aug 8, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2019
  16. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Well, the "reading" process would be done in a specialized facility, not by the brain XD

    As for the data writing, I assume only increments are written. The exact way would be related to how the minds of Aleph and/or her Aspects are built, but it wouldn't be snapshots for sure.
     
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  17. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    But that's not the way it works:
    You seem to think of that too much in ways of (classical) computer data.
    But a brain works and stores data holistically.
    So it is not possible to store data incrementally.
    You have to duplicate the way the brain works,
    and that means accessing all data to alter it.
     
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  18. FireFangs

    FireFangs Space Oni

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    Pssst, the planet is Dawn. Ariadna is the faction.

    As for the brain rewritting, I was refering to what's been done to Bits & Kiss and Ko Dali. Those were captured (or "rescued") and basically rewritten.
     
  19. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Antipodean midwit

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    Bit's perspective is intentionally ambiguous. Quite a nice bit of fiction actually.
     
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  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    My point is not about how the data is written on the cube (infinity), the cortical stack (Kovac's trilogy, Eclipse Phase), or even the cold storage backup, but about how said piece of tech should have no physical way to output data to the brain.

    That point is not about being able to create something that can write on the brain. Is about basic safety: if you are going to give a Cube to a wide array of population (as is done in all three sources I have mentioned in the previous paragraph), you cannot assume they have the needed skills (if they are, at all, possible) to defend themselves from any kind of hacking, thus my mention in previous posts about cyberbrains (GitS and all of its spinoffs). Sure, you would need something chair sized or so to interact with someone and alter his mind through the cube, but it could be done with extreme ease, and the KuangShi would not require so much alteration (mind you, I find the KuangShi a wasteful project in this case: if you can "write" the brain, then you can use those bodies for resurrections instead of Lhosts...).
    So, by design, Cubes get created unable to write on the brain. For security reasons, reduced to "it costs nothing to abduct a bum, rewrite his brain, then using him as suicide bomber or deep spy"... not to mention the inmense population of Ateks in PanO could be turned into sleepers with the surgery to implant a cube.
     
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