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[Spoiler] Hopelessness of the HS lorewhise

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by Ben Kenobi, Nov 21, 2020.

  1. Weathercock

    Weathercock Well-Known Member

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    Let the CA 'win.' Humanity begins to capitulate, CA moves in to assimilate. In the process, humanity learns of the Tohaa's manipulations, and isn't too pleased. They try turning the CA loose on the Tohaa while themselves launching operations to eat at the CA from the inside out. New alliances and enemies are formed within and without many factions. The EI is faced with new challenges as they can't afford to simply crush humanity, because Aleph is the closest thing that it's found to a reasonable chance at transcendence, and they can't simply take it over without ruining it either. Forced to hold humanity alive and at arms length for their own ends, a series of small black ops skirmishes erupts across the human sphere to influence the fate of mankind towards each's own ends..
     
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  2. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Well, there is a fundamental problem with that, being that the EI has never needed to ask nicely (when you care not about blowing habitable planets and enslaving entire civilizations, it's complicated to need such manners). There are three reasons why Humanity hasn't been reduced to the Nomad lifestyle already: the EI doesn't know where the Tzechi compiler is (and humanity doesn't know how highly regarded that red herring is for the EI); Humanity has created Aleph (making it as scientifically capable as the Shasvastii, and extremely attractive as an addition to the EI's primary directive, that is Ascension); and the CA hasn't had time to bring over their Death Stars (or whatever they use to blow up planets).
    Mind you, the EI is an inmortal, millennia-old intelligence (and that is "real time" old, there is no way of knowing if she "lives faster" or even if both she and Aleph age multiple times because of the synchronization with their separated instances...)

    Well, the CA's Third Offensive came surprisingly closer to Abby's 13th black metal rave that left the Cadia scenario fit only to be forgotten...

    Anyway, the issue is not that "if the good guys stop the infighting and band together they can win", it's simply that the writing on the wall is the Franklin's Classic of "hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately". And the only logical explanation as for why there is the minimal amount of cooperation between the human factions is that they try a zero sum game, in which all expect the others to be as weakened as possible before they all band together to push back (which carries an incredible risk of having suffered too many loses to do so...).
     
  3. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

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    Yeah, I know. Everyone is ripping off chunks from another science fiction universe to use on their own... but this one is Swedish!

    That retcon was godawful, and it follows more or less the same trend. Before, the antagonistic faction had comparatively few resources, but was crafty and fed off the vulnerabilities of a large and decadent Empire. And it failed sometimes. Now it's an unstoppable menace with bullshit powerful weaponry and entities that you can't but win small Phyrric victories against. And it does not fail, it just completes objectives in a plan that takes ten millenia to be executed or some other nonsense.

    The "we band together or we die" trope only makes sense when the aggregate of the quarreling factions is equal or bigger than the global threat. Right now it's "we band together and we get squished all the same, but slower". Also, saving the universe with the power of friendship is old hat.

    I don't mind the antagonists winning, but it has no merit if they are vastly superior in every way not counting the blackstone fortress dark symmetry TITAN McGuffins of unfathomable doom they might have lying around to use at the perfect moment, just as planned.
     
    #43 Sigeric, Dec 4, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2020
  4. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Ah, forum moaning, the Wailing Which Never Ceases, Only Changes Direction.

    This is clearly not a Grimdark direction that's going to stick around, stop panicking. Everyone loves a dark chapter once the whole has been written, and this is pretty clearly just the "cue epic minor key music" phase of the Infinity story. You can practically see the cyber-moustache-twirling.

    As others point out upthread, small changes in plot armor could change the outcome a lot. It doesn't even have to be Deus Ex Machina. Turning a few Shasvastii, collapsing wormholes more effectively, superweapons like the Dark Mist being used to sacrifice whole systems (or sent through to devastate EI systems), or even just humanity -actually getting their crap together- to outmatch EI force projection are all obvious possibilities. Or better yet a combo of the above.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Real Deus Ex Machina would be the EI running in to a faction that is more than a match for them elsewhere. Like "What's this wormhole, another race to subjugate - oh no, it's Hive Fleet Leviathan!"
     
  6. Iver

    Iver Human Plus

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    Would be nice if CA was easier to write into a more Human Sphere-centric story though.
     
  7. Savnock

    Savnock Nerfherder

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    Like how? They've been doing exactly that for a decade, with the EI as just a distraction on one planet while the rest of the Human Sphere has been black-ops-as-usual.
     
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  8. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    And even now, the EI is mostly in just two systems, rather than the one, with small incursions scattered around to be dealt with black ops style.
     
  9. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

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    Yeah, we got all of them black ops, y'know...

    Covert operations

    Proxy warfare

    Plausible deniability

    Very hush hush stuff.

    I'm just taking the piss out of the latest narrative development. The lore is OK, it's just that the "five minutes to midnight" stuff is... shall we say "better suited for other settings"
     
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  10. Aldo

    Aldo Spare 15

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    The easiest way to do that is what they did to Tohaa.

    "Somethign happenned, here's the remnants who have become just another bunch of NA2s trying to survive in the Human Sphere."

    Remember when every single japanese person except for like, 1000 or 2000 ninjas and guys with anger issues became japanese ISIS and the Imperial Service turned cities into mass graves on live TV?
     
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  11. Elric of Grans

    Elric of Grans Well-Known Member

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    IMO, a *real* Deus Ex Machina would be the Ur's original AI that ascended coming back, waving a metaphorical hand, and the entire CA turns into fuzzy bunnies. The ascended being felt a little bad that it had left some dangerous ends untied and wanted to fix that. Now it can go back to an eternity of Seinfeld repeats, or whatever it is ascended beings do.
     
  12. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    This is not The Empire Strikes Back.

    Turning "a few shasvastii" would mean, simply, the Exrah removal again (fluff-wise, not of the range), at best with a reduction of the shas presence everywhere. Which would be stupid on the EI's side and the Shas' side (it's quite opposed to their "religion" of spreading their species and avoid extintion by any means necessary to turn against the EI).

    Not escalating the military presence, leave Paradiso as the "Vietnam" of the setting where both factions are at a stalemate mostly with Morat and UR presence, while the Shas go into the Human Sphere like a virus, manipulating all actors against each other. This also justifies the black ops infighting between all the factions (even units of the same faction against each other), because of manipulation, paranoia and human errors.

    Escalating a skirmish game's fluff with large scale war, without any way of playing at such scale, is simply a risk with no meaningful positive return.
    Now, if the "new way to play Infinity" were to be a "600-900pts" full scale battle, maybe it could give a good business return, but it would have been more stable to release a Paradiso Campaign to such scale (and you can reach the model count for such points values grouping 2-3 players, or those of us who have sufficient models of elite factions) and test the waters (obviously, it would need a lighter ruleset than even Code1, possibly even allowing the models to make 2 movement orders and an third short order of any kind, several Fireteam Core & Haris, etc...).

    The Babylon 5 ending would be to ascend the EI... frankly at this point, for the EI, it might even be the same as being turned off or into a jackalope...

    Or simply "mercenary outfits controlled by CA interests thanks to shasvastii agents"

    Paradiso was specifically the total war scenario (aside from that moment in which PanO shot against YJ troops on Earth because YJ was on Japan's airspace... which had been bought by YJ centuries ago, incidentally. Uprising was... that way) which means that the black ops stuff doesn't usually happen there (the old Paradiso campaign was a joke of double agents and impersonators...) but is limited to cover ops, jungle patrols and hidden snipers, etc... (all the old "Vietnam" tropes, with the alien vibe... like the Old World of Darkness' Rage across the Amazon book, changing magic for science).

    The 5 minutes to midnight narrative, in fiction, is something that I only enjoyed in the Watchmen books (on the other situations is more used as a light sauce rather than the main condiment).

    Not to point to the obvious, but... They have a secured beachhead where to amass their ships, and all systems have bottleneck accesses... It's simply like a dam getting a crack where there were only a few drips (and those drips remain, too).

    I'd say that it's human nature to hold onto the flotsam and try to survive a day longer rather than simply letting go and drown... But if working together will make things happen more slowly (lookie there, that's the Tohaa strategy!), I'm completely certain that turning against each other like vermin won't make things better.
    The power of friendship had nothing to do with this reasoning, frankly. But in the end... Buying time to get some use of the Tzechi thingie would be more logical. Or frigging explore more space and try to evacuate the human civilization (in the shape of minds capable of rebuilding human civilization).
     
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  13. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    That is how we do it. Bring in the Tyranids and let them run amok in the Infinity universe. That will throw a couple of wrenches in a bunch of different Empires' works. Tohaa & E.I. for sure. Maybe becoming a threat that it would force all three sides to band together at least until the bugs have been weakened a bit. That or we throw in da Orkz and have them WAAAGH!!! across Combined space.
     
  14. SpectralOwl

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    Funnily enough, I think the most eldritch and horrifying crossover from that universe would be Man. The Infinity breed of Human and the foreign kind would both consider each other far worse than the EI.

    As for potentially satisfying methods of resolving the war down to a scale where black-ops makes more sense, I'd personally go with the Sphere finding out about the Tohaalluminati and the wormhole-redirection tech and redirecting the Acheron wormhole into Tohaa space. Should be sufficiently dark for CB's taste, force the CA to settle down on Paradiso and try to protect assets instead of just relying on an endless wave of reinforcements, and provide plenty of space for Tohaa factional and character development that hasn't been seen since Campaign: Paradiso. Or let them just end the Tohaa line and fold it into CA Sygmaa; CB doesn't really seem to know what to do with the artichokes these days.
     
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  15. Golem2God

    Golem2God Just a Kooky Kumotail serving others.

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    I think you are onto something here. Perhaps it would be better for Tohaa to be lumped in with the Combined and then have units from the normal Tohaa show up as Mercs or in sectorials. Granted that wouldn't go over well with those of us who like and bought into the Tohaa faction. Though I wonder how CB is not going to write themselves into a corner with the Artichokes. Perhaps make one more Tohaa sectorial for the non Illuminati Tohaa that are fighting against Spiral and their shadow masters. Then again that would just be the whole faction in a 2.0 format. I don't know what is best for the Tohaa & the game/lore at large. Is a rework truly the best option or downsizing them into conquered people & freedom fighters keeping the ideals of their former civilization alive?

    And as for the 40k & Infinity crossover having the Imperium of Man suddenly appear would also work. As the Infinity galaxy would soon realize that the Warhammer Humans are actually pushing into Combined territory with some success. I can see a Imperium/Combined war turning into a crusade for both sides with other species looking on. Especially the Tohaa. Because they realize whoever of the two wins they all lose unless they strike together to bring the weakened victor down as that would be their only shot at taking the winner out.
     
  16. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Yes.
    Yes, I do, but let’s not start down the dark path.
    Forever will it dominate your destiny.
     
    #56 Dragonstriker, Dec 6, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2020
  17. Dragonstriker

    Dragonstriker That wizard came from the moon.

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    Yesss. Give in to your hate.
     
  18. Mob of Blondes

    Mob of Blondes Well-Known Member

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    Training anyone?
    [​IMG]
    Notice the Saab laser-tag thingies and blue grenade. Photo from an expo, the out of focus people is in front of a promo wall.

    Time ago we had talks about tables with clearly training look, or with Star Trek virtual deck grids, etc.

    Time for 6mm line. ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
     
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  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    Not as fun/appropiate (in the current situation) as blue on blue, or infighting because you -no! You! No! Them! No! Who?- work for the shas unknowingly or not... and you think the same about me... and paranoia.
    THAT is the real shas weapon.

    I wouldn't know about that... a space combat game would be more interesting, I think, specially if it's digitally sold (rules & printable ships), but the ground battles... giving an option and rules module to play up to 1200pts would be much more interesting for CB, I think.
     
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  20. Sigeric

    Sigeric Irregular WB

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    - Commander, incoming transmission from the original EI.
    - Patch it in.
    - We... can't. It has the mainframe alread-...

    That's gold, Jerry! Gold!
     
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