I'm a programmer, so that's already how I'm analysing the rules. ;-) The analogy fails because you're allowed to call any of the subroutines labelled BS Attack, so the Effects of any of them can replace the first Effect of Speculative Fire. No, you can't. The first two Effects of Speculative Fire specify who it can be used against: Allows the user to make one single BS Attack against an enemy in a state that would normally make him ineligible as target of Attack without previous Discovery, such as Camouflaged, TO Camouflaged, etc. Intuitive Attack may also be used when the LoF towards the target is blocked by a Zero Visibility Zone.
I'd say all, not any, of the effects. But only the requirements are conditionals! You are saying that the "do" part of an "IF" statement also affect the "IF" conditions! Aside from that, "Allows" is an inclusive word, not an exclusive one, similar to an OR statement, meaning it does not limit, but expands; and the same can be said for "may also" :S
I don't understand. 'All' in this case would be to apply the Effects of every Skill labelled BS Attack, all at the same time. So how do you use Intuitive Attack against a target that isn't described in the Effects?
No, "All" effects in the BS Attack skill card (instead of every skill labeled BS Attack), namely: The user employs his BS Attribute (or that specified by the weapon) to fire upon one or more enemies. At the time of the BS Attack declaration, the user must choose which of his appropriate BS Weapons, Special Skills or pieces of Equipment to use. If the attacker has more than one target and a BS Weapon, Special Skill or piece of Equipment with a Burst value higher than 1, he must distribute his attacks as part of the BS Attack declaration. The attacker must also specify which type of Ammunition he will use, if more than one is available, as part of the BS Attack declaration. Syntax would be a little bonkers for a computer, since we already declared the weapon (a weapon with the Speculative Fire trait), and we run some parts "in random order" (type of ammo). Following my "computer program" simil, the computer would return a null answer, as it is written right now -.-
I think we're still talking at cross-purposes. Because any Skill with the correct Label counts as a BS Attack, you have to pick the Effects of any one of them to insert into Speculative Fire. Effectively: Call BS Attack subroutine. There are multiple subroutines that fit the description, which one do you want to call out of: -> BS Attack (BS Attack) -> BS Attack (Forward Observer) -> BS Attack (Surprise Shot) -> BS Attack (Deactivator) etc. Exactly. The only viable target is a Camo/TO Camo marker, or a trooper hidden by a Zero Visibility Zone.
I think we are mixing "skill card name" and "label". In pseudocode: Spoiler: BS Attack Define code "BS Attack"{ Label = Attack>>Requirements Check: If Order =/= ("Short Skill") OR ("ARO"), GOTO "Inaction", else Check: If LoF == false, Check: If ("BS Weapon" includes "no LoF") OR ("Special Skill" includes "no LoF") OR ("Equipment" includes "no LoF"), then GOTO "Effects", else GOTO "Inaction">>Effects Effects {>> Burst should be undefined, or 0 at this point, unless this function is called by another program (like Speculative Fire, which gives it a value of 1, and the weapon and ammo has already been selected). if Burst =/=1, else GOTO "Fire" Select "BS Weapon" Select "Ammo" Fire { If "Burst" > 0 Select "Target miniature" Run "BS check" Burst -1 GOTO "Fire" }} End More or less it would be like that, my loop is a little rusty atm, and I had to rearrange the order of the effects so it would keep the weapon and ammo selection outside of it. Anyway, now we go to the Sepeculative Fire program, and it would be like: Spoiler: Speculative Fire Define code = "Speculative Fire"{ Label = Attack>> Requirements Check: Check: If Order == ("Short Skill") OR ("ARO"), GOTO "Inaction", else Check: If ("BS Weapon" includes "Speculative Fire Trait"), then GOTO "Effects", else GOTO "Inaction">> Effects Effects{ Special Skill = "No LoF" Burst = 1 RUN "BS Attack" [insert here code for the other effects of spec fire] }} End More or less like that, so the call for "BS Attack" would call the "BS Attack" function, not any (which means one random) function with the "BS Attack" label. And yes. I am really bored. last day of the year in the office, this happens XD
The "BS Attack" label is not just any label, it also has an in-game effect. The effect of the label, as written under the section "Special Skills and Equipment: Labels" is that a skill having that label is a form of a BS Attack skill. When you create a new form of a class, you inherits all of the initial class's attributes and properties. When you call a function and it requires that as an argument you pass a member of the specific class, you can also substitute it passing instead a member of the variant class and the function will still execute. BS Attack is a base class / a common skill. FO and other Special Skills are variant forms of that base class. This is reinforced with the FAQ, you can coordinate different skills because they are all forms of the same skill. They are forms of BS Attack not because the label share the same words (which is mixing card name and labels) but because the in-game effect of that label is that they are a form of BS Attack (which is reading the label's rules and applying the effects).
I must disagree there. The labels should be similar, so you know what you can coordinate with. If not, why are those labels there? I have noticed that same problem with the different Hacker Devices, with some being "automatic equipment", others "equipment", etc... (not to mention those labels are different between english and spanish versions of the wiki...).
I agree the label should be similar and also that a label name should be appropriate to what it does. I don't agree that the label must be the exact same words and capitals used in the skill name. When two rules have different effect, they shouldn't use the same keyword. In the common language it is fine to have word with multiple definitions but when it comes to explaining game rules in a short book, it would be easier if keyword are not used multiple time. Like how we have "marker" designate CH/Imp marker state; State markers (ex: Possessed/targeted), Wounds markers (not really a State); a weapon named Marker (happily renamed in N3). The "BS Attack" skill is a skill following rules on declaring and using skills. The "BS Attack" label is a label that partially modify how the skill it is attached too works. You could have a label written "Ballistic attack" applied to all the special skills we are talking about, with the effect that they are a form of the "BS Attack" skill. Or we could keep a "BS Attack" label, but have the base skill called "Shoot Attack" which would be even more clear as the BS Attack skill doesn't always use the BS Skill attribute. So we'd have Comms Attack, Melee Attack, Shoot Attack (as local players often refer to I'll Shoot with the HMG, not I'll use BS Attack with the HMG; could also be called Ranged Attacks instead of Shoot Attacks).
Precisely my point. You don't need the labels to be case-sensitive (but it helps, so you know in the text that you are talking about the BS Attack label, and not about a BS attack. Another option is to use bolder words, or undermarked, or a different color), but we need to have the security that when we declare a coordinated order of move + Flash Pulse/BS Attack (gun)/BS Attack (grenade)/BS Attack (surprise shot) we are indeed making a legal coordinated order without needing to check a FAQ. Mind you, most of this problems come from legacy text that was just copy+rewrite or adapted from previous versions of the game, instead of a total rewrite; this can be seen if we have a look at the hacking devices on the wiki, where the spanish version just gives them all the "gear" category (should be Automatic Gear, btw, since you cannot turn it off), while in the english version some are labeled as gear, others as themselves (AHD are labeled AHD, DHD as DHD, while the new EVO, KHD and the other new ones are Automatic Equipment).
Wait a minute, EVO Hacking Device negates that. I'm back to arguing for wacky Hacking/BS Attack coordination, as long the Hackers are using Surprise Shot, and an EVO is present.
Sure, Todd, but just because Surprise Shot allows a specific type of non-BS Attack doesn't mean it automatically makes Coordinated Order allow it as well.
No, you cannot combine different kind of orders. The EVO allows to make coordinated hacking orders, which is normally impossible. That does not mean you can make hacking/BS coordinated orders, since BS is "BS attack" and hacking are not the same "label". Per the wiki: Also consider you can declare hacking against neutral units (HVT spotlight/secondary objective of 2 WP-3 rolls) and allied ones (supportware).
EVO Hacking Device allows the use of Hacking Programs in a Coordinated Order. It is not mandatory for all the Hackers in the Coordinated Order to use the same Hacking Program. "IN" a coordinated order. To me that indicates the rules governing coordinated orders are the key. Which brings me to this: However, in a BS Attack part of a Coordinated Order, none of the participants could declare Speculative Fire or Intuitive Attack, since these Skills are different than a BS Attack. I'm struggling to find out why exactly those are not allowed. Is it because they are entire order skills? Or something else? I don't quite understand where hacking attacks fit in all this. BS attack is a short skill with the attack label. Hacking programs are listed as the same. From BS attack: REQUIREMENTS The user must have LoF towards the target unless the BS Weapon, Special Skill or Equipment used states specifically that it does not require LoF. Hacking devices have the equipment label. Does this mean all hacking programs are forms of BS attack? So can I have a coordinated order combining hacking attacks and combi rifles?
I wouldn't trust much the label slapped on the Hacking Devices, since it is inconsistent on the right side (on the left, all are labeled as Comms Equipment): in spanish, all have the "equipment" (in spanish wrote as "equipo") label, while in english two are Equipment, three are automatic equipment, and the rest are equipment of their own kind. So, what kind of attack is hacking? Comms attack. Why? Because Dodge does nothing against them, while Reset does. Are they some sort of Attack? Yes, but not a BS attack (please note that PH-based attacks like grenades do have a BS attack consideration). Why are Intuitive and Speculative attacks out of coordinated orders? I'd bet the reason is their Burst: one, and there are several specifications forbidding them to go over 1. Since a Coordinated Order halves the leader's Burst (rounding up) and sets at 1 the other participant's Burst, there is little reason not to do a coordinated Intuitive if you can... aside that the rules forbid it, the same way for the Speculative ones.
Based on your response it seems you do not know why Speculative Fire and Intuitive attack can't be used in combination with BS attacks. If the Coordinated order rules are telling me I can't combine BS attacks and other actions that are different, i need to know what actions are indeed BS attacks. I need a clear structure in which to apply the games rules. I know this may seem ridiculous to have to ask, but this is why some Infinity players hate on the rules. How long should it realistically take me to figure out what kind of skill a Hacking attack is? Is it a completely separate form of attack? Because the rules don't make that clear. I see it at the highest level as troopers carrying a piece of equipment. Which means fundamentally, unless otherwise stated, shouldn't they function based on equipment rules? The whole section is headlined as Hacking: Equipment with the term used again where short skill is normally written. The comms equipment label seems to mean the device is vulnerable to certain things but nothing beyond that. Hmmm, now that I'm looking at the Equipment section i'm even more lost. Most of the equipment doesn't mention that it's equipment at all other than it being within the equipment section. How does one justify using any of that equipment as part of a coordinated order?
You're right, Surprise Shot doesn't, the Coordinated Order FAQ making a Skill with the BS Label coordinatable (?) is what does it. It doesn't say anything about having additional labels. If you use the Surprise Shot Skill, then you're using the Surprise Shot Skill. That Skill has the BS Attack Label. It shouldn't matter whether it also allows me to perform another Skill that has another Label (isn't this part of the rational for allowing Speculative Fire, not the Label part, but the Skill allowing you to do a Skill you normally couldn't do). It's not my fault CB got lazy and left out the Surprise Hack Skill.
@Todd yet you also declare the hacking program's corresponding skill, which doesn't have BS Attack label. I see your logic of that whatever is contained within the skill is entirely part of the skill, but I disagree that you can read it like that - I do think you have to look at the entire chain of skills not just the first one.
Yup, I'm on @Mahtamori 's team, I'd say "surprise shot" is slapped as "sublabel" on whatever you use with it, else people could try and argue it to go around limitations like Speculative Fire or Intuitive Attack's limitations of Burst 1... And I can do a 4-man coordinated attack+ surprise shot with 2 Nagas, 1 Dasyu and 1 Mk2 hacker easily enough.
