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Spec Ops private info

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Dr. Nik, Jun 25, 2019.

  1. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    Hello.

    So for example we have a spec ops in Holoprojector - do we still need to have him in the open list? Do we need to let opponent know what loadout he has? Do we need to show which figure it is?
     
  2. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    No. The Holo1 unit will appear on your list as any model it can Holo1 as. The actual statline and abilities of the unit in the Holo1 state are Private Information. See the example in the Holo1 rules: http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Holoprojector#Holoprojector_L1_and_Private_Information_Example:

    And the big yellow remember box:

    REMEMBER
    The presence of troopers in Holoprojector L1 state is considered Private Information. This also includes the Special Skills they have and their weapons and pieces of Equipment, too.
    However, in Holoprojector L1 state the Hackable Characteristic is considered Open Information when the trooper is inside the Hacking Area of an enemy.
     
  3. Dr. Nik

    Dr. Nik Well-Known Member
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    The problem is army builder put him on the open list.
     
  4. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Delete him from your list and add whatever you want to Holoproject as, then reprint the courtesy list.

    Remember, a courtesy list is just a handy list of the open information of the models you have on the table at the end of your deployment.
     
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  5. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Be careful doing that, the courtesy list will only be accurate if the model it represents is of the same training.

    Manually updating the list for courtesy will never work to mimic holoprojector 2.

    Holoprojector does not hide the orders generated.
     
  6. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Order count doesn't happen until the start of your Active turn so the orders printed on the courtesy list shouldn't be taken as gospel anyway, especially when you can do things like deploy a TO unit as a marker or choose not to use AD which can give a different order count to the printed one even when you go first.
     
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  7. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    It would still be knowingly giving wrong information to your opponent.

    If you had a holo2 who was represented by 3 regular troopers (because you manually made the list). If you had 2 TO units in that group, your opponent would still see 10 orders in the courtesy list when they should normally see 8 (as it is normally shown when using the menu and adding in holoechoes)
     
  8. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    My point is that they shouldn't really see any orders on the courtesy list, because those orders aren't generated until the start of the player's Active turn.
     
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  9. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    But they do. That’s how the courtesy is programmed and printed. That’s how your opponent is expecting the information.

    Purposefully altering that information and gaining an advantage because of it is cheating.
     
  10. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    I am of the opinion that no information regarding the orders should be on the courtesy list, but that’s what we have right now.
     
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  11. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Also, the holoprojector is working on my browser. I am getting the selection menu when I click on courtesy list. Make sure you do not have a add-on blocking the pop-up!
     
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  12. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I am seconding this. My opponent doesn't know the size of my order pool until I count my orders (see - Holo2).
     
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  13. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Thirded.
     
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  14. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I also add my voice to the no order in the courtesy list movement.
    Just tried and yep, for me is also working as intended
     
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  15. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    There is a long standing issue with the courtesy lists providing information it shouldn't since it doesn't handle Hidden Deployment and Holoprojector 1 and 2 correctly.

    You are required to hand over a courtesy list to your opponent that accurately represents the open information your opponent is entitled to. If your courtesy list shows too few orders because Army doesn't handle Holoecho 2 correctly, it doesn't matter that you printed it using Army, you're still providing your opponent with an inaccurate courtesy list.
     
  16. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
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    Holo works on normal units but not if you add to spec Ops. Or at least that was the case.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Nah, it's broken on normal units as well. I'll attach the printout for a list with a Single Lu Duan that's disguised as two Yojimbo.
    a) It's showing 1 Regular Order instead of the expected 2 Irregular + 2 Extreme Impetuous
    b) It allows me to make a Holo2 into two units when the only valid options are either 1 unit (Holo1) or 3 units (Holo1 + Holo2)
    c) It allows me to add Yojimbo without Mercs being enabled

    Ergo, you still have to handle Holo manually.
    HoloEchoDoesntWork.PNG
     
  18. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Though it could be argued that because your number and type of orders isn't open info until the order count you should blank out the orders printed on your courtesy lists.

    Heck, I can make my own courtesy list invalid by failing a superior Infiltration roll during deployment and revealing my Oniwaban!

    Courtesy lists are a game aid, a way of speeding up the process of divulging open information to your opponent at the start of the game. Things start to fall apart if we think of them as a solid, binding part of the rules.
     
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  19. Bobman

    Bobman MERC
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    Wow OK. I've had it work fine on normal units every time I've tried.

    Although the orders thing is correct Holo wouldn't generate more orders. But that's a fault with the courtesy list, as mentioned.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Seems to work just fine? Below is a screen capture of a courtesy list containing only a Zhanshi Spec Ops
    ZhanshiSpecOps.JPG
     
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