Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by Mikes, Nov 27, 2019.
Blue skidoo, we can too
Unless we really want to assume a Shotgun as main armament is going to work, in which case it probably still would need at least twin weapon or Full Auto to pull it off.
Otherwise lets be serious about how similar that would be to a Sujian HSG... which isn't exactly a common choice.
Dual ML + super jump S6 tag with shotty. Call it the Hoppy Poppy. Make it a transforming rabbit.
.....or give that to YJ. Either works.
The fascination with shotgun TAG is like the fascination with SMG.
It seems like a great idea, until you actually try and fight anything with it. Then you realize you're dumping a pile of orders to carry a valuable unit into the most dangerous rangeband in the game...
I think paired with something like a Feurbach where you have effectively two modes it'd work. So on an Uhlan.
Edit: with or without the Marker state.
Shotty Tags face the same problem you get with fairly expensive troops sporting like have with Patsy.
For something so expensive you'd actually like to spend more on the gun to use that B14, ARM4 and 2W for more than pushing buttons.
With HMGs and Spitfires being the exception on Specialists, this is the place were we often like to see "tier 2" weapon kits, like MK12s, Breaker Rifles or more exotic aggressive layouts like like double SMGs/X-Visor. For Patsy the SMG base works, mainly because she'd be ridiculously expensive with something like a Multi Rifle. Still you can instantly tell she really wanted something more to round out her kit and leverage that statblock on top op her Wildcard status. Could also have been a Panzerfaust, plain and simple Grenades or a Nanopulser/LFT.
But that's N3. I'd assume N4 changes something about "statblock" troop's pricing relative to their brethren amplified by high impact skills or equipment. Which could end up making Patsy a relatively cheap HI Specialist in the low 30s.
For a TAG the whole reason we're shelling out this many points on one trooper is to get the durability and the big gun in one place. There's not much of a sane reason to skimp on guns for them, which is probably why only the super light TAGs like Geckos and Xeodrons run anything of smaller caliber than a Spitfire.
With Xeodrons still getting access to a Red Fury (which is in the same ballpark as the Spitfire) and Geckos still sporting a B4 Option or MK12s as servicable replacement.
The TAG formula appears very solved at the moment. About 90% of them are heavy main armament + DTW and then add a quirk.
Finally introducing a Multi Spitfire (the tech appears to fit into Rifles and even SMGs just fine - can't be that hard to fit in a Spitfire the size a Seraph carries around). Just to diversify the "almost carbon copy" basic MBTs a bit. Would be a fairly tame addition, mixing up one of the blander troop categories.
If we want to make a TAG with lighter armament work, we could always consider going the Specialist & Toolbox route to make up for a lower B/lower range choice in a different deparment. Easy choices here are probably FO and Specialist Operative.
There's a couple radical concepts in there.
Like an AHD TAG with BTS9.
KHD TAG designed to fight it's counters. Honestly would love exploring that idea for Nomads.
TAG Engineer with the ability to repair itself.
Medevac TAG Doc.
At some point these stop making sense without serious drawbacks (i.e. >60 points limited to a Multirrifle), if we end up doing every concept that is possible just for the heck of it, chances are the game doesn't end up in a good place.
Imagine adding a KHD to the Avatar, that'd be nuts. So there needs to be something fundamentally different and a bunch of restrictions about a smaller class of Specialist TAGs. At the same time they need to stay distinctly different from HI Hackers, pretty tough to pull off.
There's already the Pilots/Remote Specialists, making almost every TAG a Specialist already, so the concept itself isn't groundbreaking, more of a change in focus.
Id love a Shotty TAG. Something like the Sphinx but trading the HFT for say a Pulsar, and the Spitfire for 2 Heavy Shotguns, as Imp suggested, Give it Camo marker state and 6-6 move. If you need it to have a weapon for range F2F, then the Fuerbach, HRL or Panzerfausts would fit. the HSs should go a way to cut down the cost and it would offer an interesting dimension in vanilla with the opponent having to guage that 40 mm being an Uhlan or the Sval Shotty TAG.
Youd have a terror that could just slide through Hacker networks and roll into the backline to just obliterate who swathes of the opponents support units at BS15+6 for a native 21, and marker state would basically mitigate the issues with being in close.
I think the marker state would be critical to making it work, because that would be what gives it the protection/means of employing its strengths effectively
A cheaper Sphinx (Weapon and TO->Camo) with dual HSG sounds both great and broken. Like @daboarder mentions it's an easy 2 Orders and then basically start nuking troops in the enemy DZ with ridiculously large Templates at +2 DAM over a BSG.
Don't think you can go to B3 and Camo here in good conscience. Then again Camo is what would make the concept work. Might be why it doesn't exist in the first place.
Really understand the appeal. Core linked HI Shotguns, AD BSGs, TO Skirmisher BSGs and even the Swiss ML's LSG can carry a whole game on the back of their templates. A TAG would make the whole thing pretty low risk.
The mentioned options either take a lot more effort to get into a list and position, die to random Rifle hits, Mines, Perimeter Weapons or DTWs and are generally at risk to end up not living up to their potential. A random linked LSG can stop most of those pieces in their tracks.
The fast TAG couldn't care about most things keeping shotguns from being a reliable choice against all problems. With high BS, B3 and Camo it has great FTF odds, enabling effective fighting even at 24", can tank a couple hits and easily breaks through the first line of DZ defense to go on a Rampage. It beats Engage AROs and Smoke tossers pretty damn reliably and still has the Marker State to prevent getting shredded by long ranged attacks or Hacking.
To top it all off it would be pretty cheap.
So yeah concept definitely works on the table in that combination but shouldn't exist with the full kit and probably needs another weakness (no DTW?).
No DTW would be an obvious one. I think 6-6 + Marker state is probably asking for too much. At 6-4 it's still plenty fast, but it's an order pit if you play it poorly.
EMaulers, Cynermines and Nano mines exist. And Camo is hardly 'Hacking Immunity': S6 is quite vulnerable to inopportune Discovers. So I don't think it'd be at all unstoppable.
Camo Stingray 3 HSG + Feurbach would still be over 90pts (~91 I think and 96 for Dual HSGs).
It would probably tend to skew as Barakiel suggests though: either own soo hard that obliterates the opponent or gets isolated and destroyed before winning the game.
You could probably go cheaper and less scary by going Limited Camo instead of Camo. Still got a marker state to cover an attack, but you need to be smarter about how you go about using it. Really I want to give it IMP-2 not Camo. IE just the marker state but no Mimmetism: this makes it that much more scarred of avoiding Discovers to avoid exposing itself.
Overall though, I think I'd prefer a 6-6 Move, Mimmetism non-marker version that is primarily a Feurbach platform but can switch into HSG mode if there's an opening. Something like that would be interesting as it'd be more likely to see a table and less likely to end in negative play experiences for your opponent.
Yeah, I've been looking forward to something in PanOceania armed with a Spitfire and Assault Pistol for a long time.
The "ultimate assault trooper".
And a TAG sporting a Heavy Shotgun would be the equivalent on a big platform.
But I think I tend to agree that such a unit, while fun, would more often than not be a trap and cost as many games as it won.
I'd consider a HSG TAG if it had Veteran and Total Immunity with with a few sane Vulnerabilities (AP and K1 come to mind). There's just too many easy close-range one-shot mechanics to try it otherwise unless the opponent is playing certain Ariadna or Tohaa flavours.
Make it based off of the original WWI concept, the Stormtrooper. Then again, wouldn't drop troops be the Stormtroopers of current day Infinity timeline?
I think pretty much everything in Infinity fits in the WWI Stormtrooper concept of fast, hard hitting raids.
It has become "the" concept of warfare in our day and age. Infinity as a game can be seen as Stormtrooper 3.0 with the Black-Ops/White-Ops skirmish mentality.
And again, I see a niche for PanO SHI here ;) smaller, cheaper, and less durable than a TAG, some additional skills/equipment to justify the increased bulk, Heavy Shotgun, 2x Assault Pistol, maybe Nanopulser.
I don't know the fluff for Betatroopers,
but Hollowmen are not piloted by (lesser) AIs,
but human brains (well, not much more left than the brain, but still!),
so (concerning the piloting aspect,) they are more like the Su-Jian than like the Karakuri.
I know about Hollow Men being technically human. Hence the point of impossible logistics and different technology strands.
So you can't just use a TAG control console to pilot it - especially for Hollow Men who require vastly different infrastructure and input controls due to the pilots physical and psychological diversion from the average human being.
There also would be no need to translate sensor input from the body into a format readable by a run of the mill human able to walk and breathe of his own accord through any sort of interface, as the Karakuri's AI could just handle the live raw data in a subprocess. Thus remote controlling a body meant to be controlled by an AI like the Karakuri or a Hollow Man raised in a virtual environment rather than a technology assisted human brain is probably going to require a complete redesign from scratch.
You can probably jury rig a PanO console to remote control a Zeta, considering the same company producing the Zeta also builds PanO TAGs this might actually just be a firmware upgrade.
YJ built their own thing for the Su-Jian so that would probably result in unsolveable cross platform compatibility issues.
There would be no need to translate sensor input from the body into a format readable by a human through any sort of interface, as the Karakuri's AI could just handle the live raw data in a subprocess. Thus remote controlling a body meant to be controlled by an AI like the Karakuri rather than a technology assisted human brain is probably going to require a complete redesign from scratch.
You can use a TAG console to pilot a Jotum or a Tik, that's not radically different. However none of the Rem:Pres HI are compatible with the existing technology for that due to each of them being more of their own branch of prototype tech rather than the fairly standardized approach to Human Sphere Rem:Pres TAGs.
Make a TAG with a HI pilot!! man that would be badass, and only Pano can do it
Nomads can keep their Iguana