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So why exactly PanO isn't armed up to the teeth ?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Maybe, just maybe, actually moderating people coming into the conversation and being dicks about the faction as a whole might help improve the tone and prevent these arguments.
     
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  2. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    Except his numbers were relevant to the discussion at hand, while yours are not.

    There are 10 types of people in the world, those that understand binary, and those that don't.
     
  3. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    hue. There are two types of people in this world.
    1. those that can extrapolate from incomplete data
     
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  4. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    I disagree.

    Pointing out isolated stats and then aggregating some random numbers doesn't say anything.

    E.g. Teutons have the second best BS in the game (third, if we consider Atalanta's BS17), and are a dirt cheap HI. Still, they suck.

    Raw stats doesn't matter much if they are on a too expensive platform, or without proper equipment or whatever.
     
  5. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member

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    I love the Seraph. I've wrecked so many opponents turn 1 with him and still had a hosp/mag link in reserve and I liked when i ran him with a Jotum. He's an absolute joy to play and scared the hell out of everyone when they can't hide from him.

    But yeah, BS is a lesser factor for considering a tag as they all tend to be high to begin with. I actually like the nomad tags a bit more than most of the pano counterparts because they tend to be a bit cheaper and pack a much better pilot to push buttons. The saly is cheaper with better bts and wip giving it better hacker defense than the dragões while packing a khd pilot. Maneuvering, defense and efficiency tend to be my soft spots when looking at Tags these days.
     
  6. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    And those that understand that this joke was actually in base-3.

    I really do like the Uhlan, but I think it'd be better served by dropping the HMG to a spitfire. Maybe a Multi Spitfire, but definitely a spitfire.
     
  7. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    I'm pretty sure I said that as part of a list of reasons Pano TAGs don't suck, reiterated multiple times as part of a range of advantages that all pano tags have. At no point have I ever advocated that +1BS fixes everything.

    As for the Uhlan I've had my face wrecked by it several times, take away the shock and the CC and it's still a Spetznas HMG with arm 6 and 3 STR, it hits targets in cover on 15's but is damage 16, and also has the option of a B2 AP+DA attack or Dam 15 EXP round with better range mods than the Multi HMG, it also has the chance to hit on 18's outside of cover and the speed and survivability to make that happen, doubled down on by being able to dash past thing it doesn't like while in marker state and not be hacked, it definitely has a niche.

    This comes down to the Uhlan being "armed to the teeth" with options otherwise not found on other tag models as per the topic of discussion.

    As a bit of a side note with the old Raicho, being immune to isolation is cool but not that much of a comfort when you're being bricked by an EM weapons, as personal anecdotal testimony (i.e. worthless meta dependent story time), times I've had a TAG isolated in any faction is 0 times I've had them bricked or pos >5, as for ignoring LOL if I wasn't spending what could have been it's own order anyway on my Raicho this turn anyway there is probably something wrong.


    2ibza2.jpg
     
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  8. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Seriously? I was prepared for this to come up.
    You want an example of a case where you would take a Uhlan over a SG HMG? LI tournament with 5-6 rounds where you're sure to face TO ambushes, TAGs and heavy stuff and will still need button pushers but you only have 10 slots. Suddenly, having only one trooper able to be good (not excellent) or correct in all of this is golden stuff. You don't need to rush for the ennemy TAG at T1 in LI games. Except Marut, there is no TAG that can eliminate it in one burst easily and stuff like Charontid will have to go through ARM 9 STR3 so you will rather have the opportunity to search total cover after the first FTF.
    I'm surely not on the level with TAGs of @daboarder but each time my Uhlan failed was when I was making the wrong decisions for it. Or excess of luck for my opponent but this doesn't count.
    I remember the old forum where there were several posts praising the Uhlan. Where are they now? Where are the double Uhlans lists posts and the UUUUUUUHLAN! battlecry?

    As for the AP HP of the Squalo, you seem to forget that there are some times that you really want this lethal close range FTF and you suddenly find out that a HFT isn't that great. For example, I find it very useful against Haqqislam and their shotguns everywhere. Or even in close firefight with another TAG.
    Plus I remind you that this AP HP gives it the stun pistol in Hunting Party.
     
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  9. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    @Aspect Graviton nobody ever said PanOceanian TAGs aren't good. Some people pointed out some places where one or two of them aren't great, and one example of one TAG which doesn't really perform on the same level as the others.

    Your response to this was, immoderate at best. Given your tone being ignored was about the best response you should have hoped for. To be clear if you continue to disrupt threads in this part of the forum in this way that is exactly how I will respond to you as a poster.

    Well, in my case at least, that's not good enough to justify. It's just too narrow (and uncommon, around here 50% of our players refuse to show to any Limited Insertion event) to be useful.

    And in terms of praise for the Uhlan?

    I never really bought "the hype", but it died dead on the tabletop for me. It's an ok TAG, but it's not in the same league as its compatriots, and the high cost for two weapons which overlap so extensively is the reason.

    Now this argument I buy into.

    There's a case to be made for Heavy Pistol over Heavy Flamethrower, and I think that it's not bad that the Squalo offers the Pistol instead.
     
  10. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    PanO TAGs are the best in the game, IMO. Other factions have good TAGs, no lie, but if Nomads got a carbon copy of the Tikbalang you'd be losing your mind at how they get all the fun stuff etc etc etc. The PanO TAGs are the ones with the biggest impact and most variety, and yeah, I played PanO with TAGs so don't give me any of that "this part of the forum" line.
     
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  11. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Are you aware that what have sparkled this discussion was the fact of Uhlan internal balance (how it works within NCA) not about external balance of Uhlan (how well he fares while being played against other factions).
     
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  12. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I can go into why the Uhlan is better than the Swiss if you like:

    1) MOV 6-4 is the massive one, this is a vast increase in mobility and order efficiency, and a main benefit of the TAG

    2) ARM 6 is strictly superior to ARM 5

    3) Strength 3 is strictly superior to Wounds 2

    4) DAM 16 is strictly better than DAM 15 and also the Feuerbach provides a vastly harder hitting ARO.

    Yes, it only has camo compared to TO Camo. But it has other advantages! One is not strictly better! Both have tactical roles! Do you want a fast, aggressive flanker? Uhlan! A super tough DZ firebase? Don't need that speed, take a Swiss! It may surprise you all to hear this but these two troops despite ostensibly being similar are actually quite different, and bring different benefits to the table! Do you think that Nomad players sit around whinging that there's no point in taking a Szalamandra when you can take a Kriza? No, because while both are ostensibly point and click shooters, they bring different advantages and disadvantages! This is in fact the core of the game!

    Jesus.
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    +1BS and REM Pres vs Pilots is all the Squalo has over the Lizard, who still gets to get a way petter Specialist (although a shitty one compared to other manned TAGs).

    That's the core of the problem though. You had your face wrecked by an Uhlan, I wreck faces with the Uhlan. You think it's great because of losing against it, I think it's bad despite winning with it. All you can see is what it can do under optimal circumstances and I agree, if there is nothing to stop it, any TAG will wreck face. But against very common threats, Smoke, CC, Camo, Hackers, E/M, competent 0-16" threats, the Uhlan can turn into a very expensive 99 point cardboard box.
    It singelhandedly solves your demand for long range firepower, which is good as you'll always need that in PanO. But it doesn't outperform a Swiss there and costs you a secondary Attacker/3 Orders. 6-4 gets you close, but a lot of fights happen in 0-16" where the much cheaper Seraph and Tik outperform the Uhlan for less points thanks to Mobility Skills and secondary weapons/Auxbot complimenting it's main armament.

    The question isn't if the Uhlan can wreck face, for everything past 30 points with a HMG that should be a given. The question is what else can it do to make it worth the extra points? It's a bad but free Specialist, it's faster and gets an EXP ARO. Those are worthwhile Skills, but is that enough compared to the downgrade from TO?
    Options =/= good by default. A Nanopulser doesn't do much on the Black Friar Sniper, on the other hand the LSG on the Swiss ML is pretty damn amazing. D.E.P. on the KotHS Combi or Jotum are not exactly amazing, a Panzerfaust on Yuriko Oda or a Daylami is great though.
    Secondary weapons tend to be good when:
    • the Profile is good without them already (i.e. KotHS Combi an Black Friar MSR are not)
    • they compliments Rangebands in several brackets (i.e. Rifle variant + Panzerfaust)
    • they add a template option to a high burst main weapon (I'd take a Blackfriar HMG+Nanopulser no questions asked every day of the week)
    • the upgrade is cheap
    Adding a secondary weapon alone might not be enough to make the cut. Especially if your combination of weapons is similar to Combirifle+Assaultpistol where it compliments an aspect where the Profile without the secondary weaponn is already quite good to begin with.
    For the Uhlan the comparison is mostly inferior to a simple Multi HMG, and doesn't provide much over a FAT1 HMG to begin with.

    TAGs don't have easy access to Firewalls to prevent every HD+ and AHD being a very permanent threat to them with Oblivion. But as you mention it's not every game those are on the table. Unfortunately there is a whole array of oneshot mechanics that disproportionately threaten TAGs in the first place. CC, Mono, K1, T2, E/M, chokepoints on the table or even just basic AP weaponry being very common.
    A cheap SMG in +3 has good odds to ruin the day for an Uhlan, by slowly chipping it to death.
    Basic Rifles still do a lot more damage per point to an Uhlan than a Fusilier relatively to their durability and cost, not to even think about Smoke chugging Warbands.
    Where most TAGs get one way or another to deal with Camo and Smoke the Uhlan can't afford losing a FTF against a Morlock or failing a Discover against a Token even once. A Swiss can't either, which brings us right back to the issue of the Uhlan being more expensive. You'll have to cut down on secondary options that might be able to deal with your main attack pieces problems.... which means you'll be lacking at least one tool like Auxilias, Deva MSV2 or Pathfinder.
    A Seraph or Tik in particular don't have a lot of these problems. Superjump/C+ solve Smoke issues by ignoring the restraint of choke points. DTWs give access to Intuitive Attack. Mines, CC or an expendable Auxbot (secondary Discover, secondary template, Electric Pulse) allow for tactical flexibility to leverage that huge chunk of points.
    They're still TAGs, they still have the downsides of a TAG, but unlike the Uhlan they don't just provide a more expensive version to solve problems that already have a lot of optimized solutions.
     
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  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Nah, we can say Swiss have at least benefit of 2 orders over Uhlan (31 pts allows you to take 2 Auxilia FO).
    So far I've lost my Swiss only 2 times. One was in CC in enemy Asawira (Decap, I risked nothing while trying to get his Lt), second was again against Haqq and their coordinated order (my ML rolled really bad). I really find Swiss sturdiness being enough. Pimp of armor (especially from odd to even) is neglicable, and I consider every such unit (TAG, HI) caught without CAMO as dead anyways.

    Yes, but it also dodges/resets far inferior. And usually I'm more scared about CC/mines/templates than "standard" shooting.
     
  15. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Anyone bothered to do the math on actually how much better? It can be tricky, at first glance it seems +-5%, which isn't much, but for example if you are in cover, get shot with a combi, you need to roll 5+ for ARM6 and 6+ for ARM5. Then you may get hit 3 times in a single order.

    I still think shooting B1 in ARO is a bad idea. Hitting harder is nice, but first you have to win the F2F, that's how to keep yourself alive.

    Funny how +1ARM and +1 DAM are strictly superior, but -3BS for the opponent is just negligible circumstance.
     
    #175 Zsolt, Sep 21, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2018
  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Did I say that? No. I said it has camo not TO camo, which is strictly superior as we all know. The point is that it has other advantages which is why I used those words.
     
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  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Well... they are. And I agree with them. Szally is nice and all, but The KB is more than enough and actually better at dealing with light targets and strong AROs. Sure durability and Medium Multi are nice - but that is 40 points we are talking about.
    So personally I'd say they are right. Szally at least gets the HRMC to keep the damage output leveled. The other Nomad TAGs are a very tough sell right now, especially in Vanilla.
     
  18. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    Re seraph superjump problem: I see the logical progression that says auxbot can't move during superjump, but has it actually been confirmed that this unfortunate RAW is in fact how it works and/or is intended to work? It is so utterly stupid, I'm inclined to ignore it, regardless of who's playing with a Seraph.
     
  19. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    It is exacrly how RAW, tbh I dont care about whatever RAI CB had in mind (or testers) as they completly failed the rules section if different (than actual) situation was intended. Also there was more than enough time to fix it if current situation was different from whatever CB intended.

    Good luck with any TO allowing you to move Auxbot when Seraph Superjumps ^^
     
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  20. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    If I was playing a friendly game, I'd just let them do it.

    I bet it was playtested that way, like V:NWI and G:Rem Presence's interaction, or the V:NWI and Shock ruling that got overturned, etc etc etc. I reckon all the silly little broken bits in the game are all actually at the playtesting stage not even used like that.