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So why exactly PanO isn't armed up to the teeth ?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Which is precisely what is wrong with the Squalo. Another NCA TAG that struggles to contest Camo in his frontyard and lacks a proper layer of defense (mostly against CC and again Camo).
    A HFT doesn't make these problems null and void. It just gives you options and the other guy has to work a little to set up the takedown. Ofc you're still screwed if someone chuggs a Smoke and sends a CC Specialist in. But at least he has to chugg the Smoke, which means spending Orders on moving someone over and rolling for it.

    @Stiopa I am pretty sure we all agree that PanO has a massive problem of being too streamlined, too spartanic on variation, Skill and Equipment choices.
    When I am looking at a Shpinx that is 7 points more expensive but spends it's point budget on massive improvement across several important areas across the board.
    Minus 1 BS, a Feuerbach and 9 points (including the downgrade to HMG) buy you:
    - 2 HFTs and a WIP13 Upgrade to use them effectively
    - DAM16 EXP CCW with the means to use it thanks to +3 CC
    - TO instead of Camo
    - 6-6 Multiterrain & C+


    I'd take any one of those Upgrades over the Feuerbach. All 4 of them matter, all 4 of them on their own would make the Sphinx a good TAG at the respective price range (although the CC capability is a reliant on access to Marker State to be really useful).

    The issue is not that I want a Sphinx in PanO, the issue is that the Uhlan doesn't get to have 4 distinctivly useful upgrade packages over his baseline Camo. He gets a second gun and triple nothing.
    I'm aware that it is by design that some Factions naturally get more gear and Skills and some less. So lets take a stroll through PanO.
    /edit: Note that this treats a cheaper S6 and a more expensive S7 with higher ARM as equivalent in terms of traits.

    Tik: Mimetism, C+, Mines, HFT, (AP CCW, Jungle Terrain) - 4 ignoring the AP CCW & Jungle Terrain as they are very low impact
    Seraph: Auxbot, CC Kit, DTW, Superjump - 4
    Jotum: HFT, Multi HMG, D.E.P., increased stats across the board - 3.25 (not counting the D.E.P. as a full feature)
    Squalo: Multi HMG, HGL, Heavy Pistol, Advanced ECM - 2.5 (rating HGL, AECM and Heavy Pistol at 1 point each is a little too much to ask)
    Dragao: HRMC, HFT - 2.5 (rating he HRMC higher than even a Multi HMG)
    Cutter: TO Camo, Multi HMG - 2.5 (if Camo is worth a whole point TO should be slightly more valueable)
    Uhlan: Camo, Feuerbach - 1.5 (HMG+Feuerbach is overall simply worse than a Multi HMG for the average situation)

    The Uhlan is a very badly designed TAG and bland even for PanO's low Standards. Now this isn't a PanO specific issue as Nomad TAGs are even worse off. Nontheless the Uhlan deserves a proper secondary trait, even despite cursed with being a PanO TAG.
     
    #141 Teslarod, Sep 19, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
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  2. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Or a Cutter.

    Jotum, Dragoes, Tikbalang gets the HFT, Seraph gets the odd Nanopluser (because it's a Myrmidon, I suppose), and that's it.

    Even though when Shinobu get's in your face, from behind, from stealth, you are rekt, in other situations it would be good to have a HFT, I think it was a stupid "design" decision to add "diversity" to our TAGs. It's totally not a beat all CQB problems weapon, but helpful for sure.

    Also TAGs are the most fun plaforms to deliver HFTs into opponents face.
     
  3. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    No matter the level, you are still paying for it from the same 300pts pool, so I don't think this is a good argument.

    Imo the difference between TO and regular camo is huge. Unless you can get into it's face with Sniffer/Sensor to be in ZoC and discover automatically, you only get a +6 to discover with sensor (-cover, with range), it's still extra -3 for TO. Then after discovery you also have to shoot it, the extra -3 applies there as well.

    This isn't a popularity contest, it doesn't matter how many people say something.
     
  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Yes, no argument there. And yes, Sphinx is a top of the line machine, Uhlan loses against it.

    But I don't agree that TAG usefulness fully depends on the amount of upgrade packages it gets. Dragao has its role in ASA, even though it's more streamlined than Tik. Cutter will be played in Varuna.

    I see Squalo as more problematic than Uhlan, mostly because it's more difficult to capitalize on "heavy artillery" TAG, and because the loadouts without HGL are meh. Could use some more Smart weaponry, really.

    To reiterate: it's less meaningful for the units in question. A difference between 85 and 99 pts means less for the compared units than between 15 and 29, for example.

    I agree that the difference is huge. What I disagree about, is that it's huge enough to be a deal breaker.
     
  5. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    But this is exactly my problem with Uhlan.

    I hadn't yet played a game with it (that's why I'm rather not stating that he is simply "bad"), but whenever I want to make a list with one I end up missing something in my usual NCA list (for example Hexa MSR) without having a feeling that the addition of Uhlan fixes the hole. It then reverts to "ok can a Swiss do same job, and I throw 2 more Auxilia FO to list?".

    Usual answer is "yes, Swiss + 2 Auxlia (or Hexa) are much better".

    Regarding the TO (and obvious fact that TAK gets hilarious amount of Sensor when it comes to "low-tech faction" (srsly again wtf CB best camo faction with best anti-camo tools?o0) enemy still must "guess" where to do Sensor scan, and knowing that you play against TAK you can deploy your Swiss in less orthodox places.

    While in case of Uhlan, enemy knows exactly where to go and put their TrenchHammers, T2 ammo.
     
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  6. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    Are you guys now seriously complaining about the versatility of pano TAGs? YOU HAVE SEVEN OF THEM.

    There are three marker state TAGS in the game, of which pano control two just in case you don't want to pay for a full TO battle TAG
    There are two super jumping TAGs in the game, of which pano has one, and that TAG is the only one of those is a full battle TAG.
    There are nine BS 15 Tags in the game, of which pano have seven.
    There is one arm 10 Tag in the game, Pano has the only one
    There are four HRMC's in the game, one is on a pano TAG with the best BS of the four.
    There are two Heavy grenade launchers in the game, one is on a pano TAG with the best BS of the two.
    There is one TAG with a disposable Aux bot, Pano has the only one edit: there are two, I blocked tohaa from existence just like CB.
    There are four TAGs with stealth in the game, Pano has two.

    All TAGs have a CQB problem, the Raicho gets a heavy shotgun and hits on 20's but it's still not going to beat a TO model with a BSG and would be better off with a heavy flamer. Want to keep your tags safe from CQB? Perhaps consider using one of your three units with drop bears.

    What else do you need? Do all pano TAGs require a KHD? Light shotgun and a smoke launcher on every TAG in addition to a direct template weapon?
     
    #146 Aspect Graviton, Sep 19, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 19, 2018
  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Read the rules. It's "half" of a superjump.
    [​IMG]

    @rem
    Well we could possibly write something intelligent here but this last line is exactly enough to realise that any in-depth writing is pointless.
     
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  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    X is more bad than Y is not the argument.

    They are both under "budget" and both should get to be their own thing. Funny enough I have the same complaint about the Lizard, who has to trade his HFT for the HGL and also gets one of the worst Pilots there is to add insult to injury.
    Then again more viable Spec Fire is a bad thing for the game, so leave the HGL Profiles as their own thing and just add interesting options to the Profiles without it.

    We have similar issues everywhere. Fusiliers aren't very different from other Factions Linetroopers. They're pretty much consistent with Alguaciles and you can definitely say we got the better deal out of it. Which we should, because fucking +1 BS is what we're giving up Smoke and utility for.
    Then there is the Swiss vs Hac Tao, Swiss gets better HMG and ML(thanks to the LSG and BS15), Hac Tao gets the better Hacker, BSG, KHD and XO. On top of useable CC, DA CCW, Nanopulser and WIP14.
    Fortunately for us BS 15 HMGs and TO Camo have very nice synergy and we ignore that there seems to be some issue with the design issue again.

    Hsien vs Aquila. That's the one we're a bit mad about. We get the usual +1BS and MSV3 and that in itself is okay as a tradeoff for the no Smoke, no Warbands, "1 of everything you absolutely have to have to meet minimum requirements and a whole bunch of clone troopers" theme we have going on.
    MSV3 is neat but without the Smoke and no further options beyond 2 weapon options this is where we get a bit upset. "Hey the Swiss at least gets a Specialist and a LSG for the ML, where is the Aquila's little character piece?". While again the Hsien gets to sit on his options (that are arguably of questionable use, but still exist!). BSG, Tinbot, +1SWC Lt. MSV3 and BS15 gets traded away for useable CC, Stealth, a Nanopulser and the outside options to have a nice CoC dude and 5 point Smoke chuggers or Core Linked Smoke LGLs.
    Truth be told the Hsien could need some work himself, the HMG is just so much better suited to do work with his kit. But this is about the PanO design budget issue so we'll keep it there.
    After stripping the already straightforward Hsien off options we get a whooping 2 Profiles and the weaker one gets a Lt label with no frills as well. I do take the HMG at times and it does exactly what it should, nice and clean. But we should really not be satisfied with that at this point. We've dumbed down another troop twice, a troop that is also sitting next to Asuras and Charontids.
    At least for the Asura CB pretty much admitted their mistake and fixed it by slapping a Multirifle on the Hacker, making the Lt grant an extra Order for the reasonable price of 3 points and decreasing the asking price for CoC by 10 points to make it fit. Et voila - same list as before 2 more Orders for free + Counterintelligence vs the Smoke a Myrm Officer would have provided - problem fixed.
    So now the Aquila stands there in between his brethren looking at his 3 bland Profiles and nods his head - Yup I'm next.

    The list goes on, Orcs, Bolts, Teutons, Fatherknights, Black Friar Sniper, Locust.... etc.
    For each of those you'll find a more distinct troop with more and better design budget that is still bad. And because we're not alone at being bad someone will look at both and call it "still okay". Which it is not. X being worse than Y is not an excuse for either of them being dead weight.
    And for Christs sake do not misunderstand that as "buff the Aquila HMG", no, please don't. Don't want to touch the HMG, that is fine. But fix the damn Multirifle to to pretty much anything at all. Make Suryats, Brigadas and Orcs do one thing a lot better than everyone else around them.
    Make them feel like they actually have a purpose to fulfill rather than "generic HI fitting generic Faction theme".

    And that is why the Uhlan sucks.
     
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  9. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    Excuse my ignorance, am I missing something? How is it only half a superjump? Yes I know the Auxbot doesn't have superjump, but you only check coherency at the beginning and ending of an order. With 8" zone of control, that still gives you a lot of wiggle room to work with, and if it really becomes a problem, leave the 4 point bot behind. If the bot is that important, it can always be reconnected by falling back into the Zone of Control. It is not uncommon to spend an order to get a TAG to fall back to a defensible position.
     
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  10. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Problem is mobility.

    I don't play Seraph that often, but I had enough problems with it to actually use his superjump as a nice mobility tool. Auxbot cannot move at all if Seraph decides to superjump (as short skill).

    We are talking here about 80 pts investment into frikking Spitfire, this "simple" HFT is really needed to make it any kind of table relevant, and actually order efficient (in killing both light and hard targets).

    And the sole fact that you suggest just to abandon one of the Seraph's selling points (don't like it, then keep overpaying for the trooper) as an actual valid thing is hilarious.

    Other factions do have nice rules synergies (Haqq "sudo" plasma), while PanO suddenly has to "rule is broken, it's your problem".
     
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  11. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Oh, am I supposed to weep for the other super jump tag not being a full battle tag ? the one with the Haris which lets it tag along the scary cc specialist space vampire? that can be a full blown specialists, the tag with a red fury which is basically better than a spitfire due to how awesome shock is when dealing with the NWI prevalence in the midfield ?

    There are TWO tags with disposable heavy flamers g synch units, the seraph and the gorgos . One has half baked interactions with its attachment ,the other you can slap a mate on.
     
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  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Not to mention Gorgos having nice option of chosing his squire's equipment (Pulzar or LSG).

    And they say Auxbots are PanO's thing ^^
     
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  13. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    Well I am getting a Seraph soon, but haven't actually used it on the tabletop yet. So I will defer to your greater experience. On paper it does not seem like such a bad deal to me. Even with the limitation that the auxbot does not have superjump, it seems that there is a lot of mobility for me to take advantage of.

    I am not saying leave the auxbot behind always while continuing to pay for it, but if I have to sacrifice a 4pt model to get a good angle on an expensive road block, that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.

    They way you are putting it, it seems it would be more fair to call it half a HFT than half a superjump.
     
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    There's is none gained. You are aware that if there is anything higher than Seraph, you cannot "just" declare superjump and move on top of it ? No, if Seraph wants to use his "signature" skill, his buddy is forbidden from any movement.

    And don't even start talking about long skill jump on Seraph, I prefer my TAGs to be alive.

    Or you cannot run the Auxbot around the corner to flame someo link, while Seraph at the same moment superjump into air to shoot that other guy who though it is safe on top of building ?
     
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  15. Pen-dragon

    Pen-dragon Deva

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    Fair enough. I am not totally convinced it is not worth it, and I am going to give it a try on the table. After some use I very well may come to the same conclusion you have.
     
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  16. Aspect Graviton

    Aspect Graviton Friendly Alien Overlord
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    True there is the Gorgos which is weird from start to finish (like taking 3 wounds and not being KO),

    As for the aux bot having to idle is that really such a crippling flaw? Do you need the bot to run up when you're playing pogo-stick-spitfire? Where possible are you not advancing your seraph normally to take advantage of cover? As for the seraph's maneuverability it vaults obstacle under S7 anyway during ground movement, or if absolutely nessecary can long skill jump or climb 6" anyway It genuinely doesn't feel like a constant and crippling problem. It's in no way less than the Gorgos in terms of its speed it straight up just has more options that the gorgos.

    It seems like a lot of the grass is greener, I really rate that haris but it has it's downsides, like the squishy shockable vampire in the middle, and the 160pt entry point. It gets pretty thoroughly slammed as a choice and more like 3W S6 HI than tags. (also I find the multi rifle to be the superior choice, better reaction fire, choice of AP and save precious OCF SWC and you still get a blitzen) the Umbra is also the only one that can dodge as Xeos are hoping for 7's and any form of actual anti tank weapon obliterates them. If you're looking for shenanigans you can do generally better with the EM resistant, mimetic rodok core.

    Now I have no complaints about Xeodrons, What I'm saying is that Pano have a range of options and choices and they're all self sufficient gun platforms with some sort of an edge or niche, I can't really see how any of them line up poorly in comparison to say a guija who's hard average for a tag but has a sword, or the old raicho.
     
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  17. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    the old raicho was meh, but at least it was a tag that could not be isolated which was a nice gimmick.

    forcing different angles with seraph and auxbot is pretty limited due to skill combination restriction.

    the multi rifle is better aro, but the red fury is a far better active shooter. the k1 rifle is also an excellent tag killer. and with the haris you got excellent room for variation. you should also not be forced to ever make the same aro with 3 members of the haris , and the samaritan becomes extremely durable once he starts eating things midfield.

    The seraph is relatively mediocre , i find the o-yoroi to be preferable as a CBQ tag
     
  18. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    So the CA players come over and decide BS15 fixes all problems and all PanO TAGs are fine?
    Well thanks for your contribution, haven't heard that one in a while.

    I'm probably one of the few people who likes the Seraph, Superjump working on the Auxbot or not. What I dislike about him is mostly the WIP12 and lack of a LT Option despite the pilots being veteran Father Officers. That said Lt option would be quite useless without functional CoC, so who cares.
    Not sure why people don't understand how deadly a G:Sync HFT can be on top of a Superjumping Spitfire.

    I'd fully agree that almost all Nomad TAGs are worse off than PanO TAGs and the Guija is pretty much on par with them.
    But beyond +1 BS (which they pay for) Squalo, Uhlan (99 points camo HMG trollolol) are up there with the worst offenders.

    Yadda yadda, X being worse than Y doesn't mean Y doesn't need to be fixed as well.
     
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  19. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Wow, you really like numbers!

    There's ONE Yuan Yuan in the game, Pano has ZERO.
    There are SHITLOADS of smoke in the game, Pano has ZERO.
    There's ONE Bolts in the game, Pano has ALL of them, they still suck.
    There's ONE Nisse in the game, Pano has FOUR of them.
    Drop bears cost ONE points in the game, but for Pano it's THREE.
    Smoke can costs SIX points in the game, but for Pano it's FIFTY.

    Throwing numbers around doesn't mean anything.
     
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  20. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Can you please calm down?
     
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