Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jul 20, 2018.
Doesn't matter as long as the conversation is interesting!
Well in the video CB posted a few hours ago, it sounds like they won't be doing anything too large unfortunately. I fear that our grievances will not be heard.
Well, they said that it will be very subtle, no unit reworks and new link options. So while bolts may not gain total rework we may see bolt engineer and Aquila NCO/Strategos l1.
Still not really enough for the Bolts, unless the link options are epic.
Aquila NCO/Strategos/(maybe LT2?) would be a nice patch to further split the Aquila from the Hsien. And match fluff.
For the very same price, Bagh Mari has -1BS, +1WIP, +MSV1, +Mimetism + nobody cares pseudo multiterrain - nobodycares 6BTS, Bioimmunity, Vetaran +- different options, which are actually meaningful.
Bagh Mari Equipment is just good all the time anytime, Bolt equipment is situational and meh.
And I'm back at the topic of "visual BS mods >>> anything (except Burst bonus of similar significance)" again.
Bolts aren't the best example, because they're one of the two PanO units that could use a complete makeover.
It's impossible to foresee what CB will do. It might be that all changes will be cosmetic, it might be that at least some units will get a deeper rework. I'm not going to go by the word of Bostria on this one, I'm not getting my hopes up, I'm just waiting. And playing with OSS and TAK in the meantime.
At least there has been confirmation for what was suspected.
CB will update older troops to the current point formula.
So we should expect that 2 point drop for Combi+LSG/Assault Pistol and Drop Bears across the board.
Since the basic Raicho Profile got cheaper, either Veteran or something in a TAG's (ARM?) profile might have gotten cheaper as well.
It was mentioned that we can expect more new Profiles like for the Raicho across Factions, which leaves room for speculation. Honestly hope they do something about the Nomad TAGs first and then maybe make Uhlan, Cutter, Squalo and Dragao more interesting. That said I don't play Nomads, everything except Szally could really need a bump, hardly anyone puts stuff that is not Szally/Gecko on the table for a reason.
Thats great news, Bolts really needed a price reduction. that means what, with a spitfire shotgun 5 man link -8 points? Pretty good.
Just like Konstantinos got while old Dire Foes were reworked ^^
I'd argue that PanO TAGs don't really need anything. Uhlan and Dragao certainly don't; Cutter and Squalo could just use some loadout refining (TAGs are supposed to be our specialty, so most of them should be optimized).
Ok, this is a side-topic, but please gimme a good argumentation how Uhlan is worth the additional points over Swiss Guard HMG.
Errrm... Uhlan needs serious work. Right now it carries two weapons that make exactly 0 sense together, and that do not gel well with its Camo state.
Compared to Swiss Uhlan is faster, more durable, armed with an additional weapon against heavier troops (Feuerbach starts getting better than HMG against ARM 5/6 IIRC, and is far superior in ARO), has a specialist (a shitty one, but it's always something) on board...
HMG and Feuerbach make perfect sense together; one is for lighter targets, another for heavies. And both, especially Feuerbach, profit nicely from Camo.
Bottom line is that Uhlan is a hunter-killer TAG, well suited to outflanking its targets and taking it out with a surprise shot, before retreating behind screen, getting back into Camo, or attempting to score objectives in a last ditch attempt. Swiss HMG is awesome and has access to Hidden Deployment, but doesn't have the same tactical flexibility.
Here's the problem with that theory. HMG and Feuerbach have (almost) same rangebands that prefer longer range. This means extra maneuverability isn't quite as critical, and frankly, why not just give it MULTI HMG? Not sure on prices, but these two almost certainly cost more and in effect are similar if not worse.
Nobody is denying Feuerbach and HMG have different applications as you note. Feuerbach is low burst; hunting heavy targets with it can be dicey, especially since heavy targets will have similar BS and will be firing likely a MULTI HMGs EXP round back at same rangebands - so your advantage is quite low (-3 Camo, maybe -3 Surprise Shot for that one shot).
Why they didn't give it 2x Feuerbachs, I cannot understand. And perhaps a second profile with Spitfire or something similar for short-range hunting. The HMG+Feuerbach loadout bloats the price while making sure it's not really good against either targets. It's worse against lighter targets than say Tikbalang.
Again, this is a profile that is trying to be multirole but ends up neither here nor there.
Maneuverability is critical; it allows Uhlan to deny cover, if not maneuvering completely into the back arc. MHMG would be nice, but I'm not going to sniff at getting the Feuerbach instead.
Surprise Shooting at Swiss HMG caught out of cover gives Uhlan 63-70% chance to wound, with a 6-9% risk of taking damage in return. I wouldn't call that especially risky. Feuerbach is more risky option here, but has a higher chance of causing a secon wound, and gets better at higher ARM values.
Overlapping range bands aren't a deal breaker. Most units have their weaknesses for a reason, and we shouldn't ask to plug them just because we would like ours to be perfect.
A different loadout with shorter range weapons would be nice, but this is actually where Tikbalang steps in, with its flamethrower and mines (I'd really like Tik to get Spitfire/AP Spitfire/Multi Spitfire instead of HMG to further push it into CQB role). As for those lighter targets... Uhlan still has a BS 15 HMG, just as Tik. It has the same -3 vis modifier. And it has access to Surprise Shot, when Tik doesn't. It's on par/better against light targets than Tik. What are you talking about?
I don't get how TAGs without DTWs for basic defensive capability have to exist just to make them diverse.
Some sort of DTW has massive impact on a TAGs utility, helps with defending your big investment against cheap stuff and helps offset problems with Camo. A major plus point for heavy TAGs is that they get the usual HFT, period.
A Heavy Pistol for instance just doesn't provide anywhere near the same flexibility.
Dropping the cost for higher ARM levels or TAGs in general isn't addressing the core issue. Same as FDL1 for all MI doesn't fix Bolts and mostly buffs MI that is aleady good instead. Dropping the price for Combi + LSG and Drop Bears to match the value is what can be done to address the problem.
The Uhlan has a worse FTF than the 31 points cheaper Swiss against >90% of the targets it runs into. It doesn't have Hidden Deployment to conceal it's position and can be killed pretty handily by the usual Tohaa Sukeul HM+Makaul+X triad on turn 1 in your own DZ before you get to use it. Part of that problem is that NCA has nothing to protect them against Eclipse Smoke (Minelayers/Perimeter) but the bigger part is that an Uhlan is always a Intuitive Attack or Discover away from death. It's 99 points that can't defend itself for shit within 0-16" relatively to it's pointcost.
A Swiss gets to shoot back with Pistol/LSG or gets to Dodge on a 14 after forgetting about the extra -3 from TO and Hidden deployment for a bit.
For almost 100 points and lackluster survivability next to a Swiss, the Uhlan can score points with added durability through ARM6, 3 STR, Rem Pres, better mobility with 6-4 S6 and situational increased damage output mostly through FAT1, you're very often better off shooting your B4 DAM16 HMG in +3 instead of trying to make the Feuerbach work. Against a TO Sniper outranging your HMG for instance the Feuerbach is only marginally better than the HMG in -3.
Against most TAGs in Cover the Feuerback significantly increases your damage output, but also your risk to eat an (EXP) ARO. Then again if you manage to maneuver so you can catch the TAG out of Cover you are way less likely to lose the FTF (about 50%) and pretty close to the Feuerbach's damage output even with the HMG. The question here is how often do you actually fight into a Heavy TAG in Cover and how much value would you give that option?
Here's a few data points - ARM5 with or without Cover is in favour of the HMG. ARM10 with or without cover is in favour of the Feuerbach. For ARM 6-9 it depends on Cover or not and if you want to significantly minimise risk vs maximising damage potential.
So the real problem with the Uhlan is not that he isn't deadly enough, because the Feuerbach virtually has neglible impact except a better ARO to the average game. ARM8+ TAGs are not exactly common on the average table after all, and fighting them in heavy Cover is not the most efficient way to deal with them either.
So we have a TAG that only shoots and is faster, lacking defense, but increased durability and the shooting part has a few niche improvements against one type of uncommon opponent in for him favourable position.
With the added problem that the Sectorial it is in struggles to compensate for it's weakness and already has great shooters that can match it's strenghts. In one word the Uhlan is redundant.
How could one possibly call that good next to a 14 point cheaper TAG that gets 3 possible layers of effective defense on it's own Profile. HFT, Mines and C+ to hide or protect from CC. You lose Surprise Shot and Marker state, but are again, much cheaper and get C+ one of the most amazing skills to have on a TAG. That said it also appears in SAA, which in my oppinion does a much, much better job defending a TAG that can also defend itself already. In Vanilla where they clash again, this really shows. Especially with the Cutter available to add a further questionmark to the Uhlan's viability.
In NCA, depending on Mission setup, you still might want an Uhlan for Deadly Dance or other missions. It's not completely useless. But it does a bad job at being a distinct troop.
Being a WIP10(11) 6-4 Camo Specialist deliverd in mobile Total Cover can be pretty great, but also exposes you to massive danger because of the mentioned lack of defensive capabilities. NCA is a little short on mid range workhorses, mostly due to SWC restraints. Losing an Uhlan is crippling and you won't have the extra mid range troop a less expensive Swiss would allow you to field. 99 points is a lot to ask for something that essentially still competes with a Spetznaz in terms of Firepower.
Again, raw Firepower doesn't have to be the problem, but it's pretty much all the Uhlan does, which makes it one.
To fix the Uhlan would mean to address the issue he does not get amazing value out of that Feuerbach, much like a Combi+LSG. There is a lot of overlap here.
It wouldn't even be unreasonable to drop him down near the Tik's pricerange, just for that reason. Which in turn allows you to upgrade a low end troop like an Auxilia to a mid range troop like a Deva or Hexa. That already would go a long way to address the issues an Uhlan inflicts on a NCA list he is in.
... What kind of tables or players are you playing where you can that easily deny cover without crossing into opponent half? And if you are crossing into opponents half of the table, how do you engage outside 40cm?!
Wow, I mean, sure, if you engage at perfect conditions of course Uhlan will be better. I fail to see how it can be so easy to catch Swiss HMG out of cover on its reactive turn, even with Uhlan manoeuvrability. Either the enemy has been destroyed so completely it doesn't really matter, or your enemy is doing something really, really wrong (I mean, leaving Swiss HMG to ARO is already fairly wrong, given that there is an Uhlan on your side).
You're missing my point completely. Complaint about the weapons covering same rangebands is simply another reason why the two weapons together are not a good match.
I'm not arguing for Uhlan having weapons on single profile that cover different rangebands, but instead to have one primary weapon suited for its role.
And please, don't take it I'm biased against multirole units. However, I do want such units to be actually useable, not just a jumble of stuff thrown together and overpriced.
But it's not, because it costs significantly more in points. You pay more while getting roughly the same effectiveness on main gun (honestly, Surprise Shot may be nice but either requires a lot of Orders or come in play once during the game). Tik gives you generally equal odds (but also carries HFT and Mines as you point out), and has Climbing Plus for that extra manoeuvrability.
Unless you are a Squalo xD
Nemo, you're mixing effectiveness and cost-effectiveness in the same sentences. The fact that Uhlan costs more (and I disagree 14 pts is a significant difference at this point level) doesn't make it worse against same kind of targets. It might make it less cost-effective, but that's only if it's not taken and played for its strengths. Yes, it's a multirole unit. Yes, it's at a disadvangtage if enemy unit gets too close. But it's like complaining that Proxy Mk.5 FO is weak, because it can be countered by a well placed sniper.
Teslarod, it's pretty obvious that we judge different skills pretty differently. If you're considering Swiss' TO as a significantly better defence because of that additional -3 (Hidden Deployment is significant, but once out of it TO and Camo can be Discovered just as easily by any unit with Sensor - and they're pretty common, and getting more common with TAK release), and at the same time consider Tik to better defended because of HFT, Mines and C+, then we won't be able to agree. Especially since you're taking into account order cost for re-camo, but not for climbing or deploying mines.
PanO has it's fair share of problem children, but Uhlan is not one of them.
You are right, I did not clearly delineate between the two. However, I still claim it suffers in both from Uhlan. And no, again, it's not a problem that it has a disadvantage up close, I'm just saying this disadvantage prevents it from being effective in one of the "multirole" aspects.
Speaking purely vanilla PanO, there is 0 reason to take Uhlan over either Cutter or Tikbalang. Cutter is significantly better at both lighter and heavier targets on long range, while Tikbalang wins at manoeuvring up-close, especially against lighter targets. Uhlan kinda wants to do both, but once you add in its cost, it's simply not cost-effective for its price.
In NCA the comparison is different since it "only" competes with Squalo, but honestly, you can take a Swiss guard and
I think that's a completely unrelated comparison. I do not claim Uhlan is weak because it has a counter, but because it doesn't know what it wants to do and thus pays premium for 2 weapons which overlap.
If you want comparison, it's much closer to woes about Combi + Assault Pistol or Combi + Light Shotgun. Except you pay a third of your list for them.
I think most of us disagree strongly.