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So why exactly PanO isn't armed up to the teeth ?

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jul 20, 2018.

  1. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I think perhaps top its players should be getting play test document if they arent already. Whoever is currently doing the playtesting isnt catching a lot of stuff
     
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  2. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    This is a problem I've got with playtesting in general when it's "top <insert tournament system here> players". There keeps being weirdness that slips through that makes me feel like I'm a conspiracy theorist. It's stuff that seems obvious to an outside observer once the stuff goes public and these guys are supposed to be "top" players? How are they missing it?

    Then you see them running the powerful stuff in tournaments and all of a sudden a light clicks on...

    With regards to the Seraph+Auxbot:
    I think an easy solution is to have it get fluffed as a new version of the Auxbot that gets "deployed" by the Seraph proper and can at any point get "undeployed".
     
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  3. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Or seraph gets a new auxbot with jet thrusters that can super jump.
     
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  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Imagine maybe, just maybe the Seraph is fine the way it is.

    Sure from a fluff perspective it doesn't make any sense. But it would just be OP.
    Especially because a 4 point Superjumping HFT is nuts on his own and so is a 6-4 BS15 Spitfire TAG.
    Having the high BS high Burst Attack + Template thing available not just on ground level, but also for medium to large sized buildings is nuts.
    Superjump B2 CC20 DAM17 EXP CC Attacks on rooftops not included.
    Oh we might still get it in the November Update anyway, now that would be concerning.
    Buffs to perfectly great and viable troops that do unique things.
    Hi there powercreep, did GW get tired of you?
     
    #184 Teslarod, Sep 26, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2018
  5. barakiel

    barakiel Echo Bravo Master Sergeant
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    It sounded like you're aware already, but to clarify for others, Top ITS players do NOT playtest any new Infinity rules.

    Some playtesters may also play ITS, but doing well as an Infinity player doesn't unlock playtesting privileges or anything. The playtesters are a select group.

    I think about this sometimes. Would it be interesting to see the theoretical notions, or is it better to just see the final product? Sometimes CB staff gets mixed up, because they've playtested so many different variations of rules, unit designs, etc. that it's hard to remember what made it into the official version. Dealing with that sounds tricky.
     
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  6. kanluwen

    kanluwen Well-Known Member

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    And truthfully, that's even worse for the actual health of a game IMO. If you surround yourself with people who you handpick you can get confirmation bias or even just people who don't think to say "No, it should be this way instead" because they're worried about you not letting them be involved further.
     
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  7. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Mate what are you getting at?
    Letting the 1% playtest the game is bad because.... reasons, I guess?
    Not letting the 1% playtest the game is even worse because.... some more reasons?

    I am abusing the shit out of some recent additions to the game and I'm pretty sure none of those would have passed playtesting if someone who actually cares about playing this game full tryhard had faced them on the board.
     
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  8. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Now I'm curious what @Teslarod is "abusing".

    But as a playtester for a couple of other wargames in the past I can say that a lot tends to be picked up by playtesters but then not changed (for whatever reason) by the writers/designers only for things to blow up later.

    So keep in mind who makes the final call on these things.

    But I would NEVER want the playtesting team to just be the top x% of the ITS winners. That would be terrible for the game because the people who are good at playing something are not necessarily the only ones you want to balance for, and may also leave things in because they know how to use them in ways that other players do not. They can also tend towards accepting "hard edge" strategies which a wider player base can find abusive. But most importantly testing rules is a skill, and not all good players have that skill.
     
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  9. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    The counter point is that if you have super casual players playtesting the rules they may either not think of game breaking points or may think nobody would interpret X one way, and then it becomes a huge point of contention and rules debate.

    Honestly i will never understand how fat2 and mates really got past play testing . Not because they are extremely op and game breaking but because they are non enjoyable mechanics that dont seem really thought out.
     
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  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    One example is no problem.
    Remember that inconsequential Xenotech Civvie, that only uses existing mechanics and is no issue whatsoever?

    It's pretty neat when you spend 10 Orders on your Achilles (obviously after your opponent blows a Command Token for half value, because Shukra CoC is also fair and balanced).
    Now that's not news, but what is news is a matchup that previously had some issues, namely Tohaa (Makaul HFT) and Ariadna (Chasseur LFT) gets a bit trivial when you don't have to slow down to pick up a hard counter to fire templates.

    Where you previously had to disassemble a triad rather carefully mainly because of the Makaul, you just show that guy the finger. How you ask? Easy. Where that Makaul previously could make you sweat or at least slow you down by threatening HFT AROs, you can now have the Xenotech walk in front of you to block any chance to drop a template. The first time you do that, you can cash your Gotcha in. A lot of people don't know or forget how this works and that the Civvilian is going to block any Template touching his movement path. The second time your opponent will know he is screwed, the first time he'll eat an unopposed full Burst for his efforts.
    If your opponent leanred his lesson and Smokes, you oppose with your Spitfire or just move again. You can also just walk past the Makaul to EXP CCW the rest of the Triad in the face.

    So what else can the Xenotech help with?
    Walk past a capable ARO piece? No problem.
    Move out your Xenotech out from behind a corner, force ARO Declaration -> use your second Short Skill to move unharmed into the next piece of Total Cover.

    Xenotech vs Avatar, lol what's a Sepsitor.
    Xenotech vs TAGs, HFT are so yesterday, didn't you get the Makaul memo?

    To add some stats to that I'm looking at a 11 win 1 tie 0 loss streak with Vanilla Aleph, That's all Aleph games I ever played in my life. 10 of those 12 games are 2 day 5 game tournaments with national level competition.
    I'm not that good on my own.
     
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  11. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member

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    @Teslarod this is something I picked up on really quick that the civvie is better defense than anything in the game for solo pieces. If your opponent knows how to scoop templates it's slightly more limited in ARO but active turn its monstrous at obliterating aros. I am baffled by the xenotech's rules and how they got through.
     
  12. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Very much this.

    Anyone else know the Heavy Gear game? And how it is notorious for having a new version of the rules drop about 6-9 months after the 'brand new edition' because playtesting didn't find some horribly broken thing, but public release revealed it almost instantly?

    That's because there's nobody in the Dream Pod 9 playtesting squad whose assigned job is to Break the Game. Someone whose goal in life is to find all the broken, bullshit rules interactions and stretch them to absurdity. Sometimes it's kinda fun to be friends with one of those guys (I had a wicked set of Dragonhide armor made up from some rules stacking in D&D3.5, between the Dragonomicon and the Quintessential Samurai books), but a lot of games companies don't seem to have a Game-Breaker on staff.

    Often, high-tier tournament players are good at finding the broken shit. But not always.
     
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Word on the street is that some issues come from a fact that playtesters do not test "written rules" but "intended rules".

    On top of me always saying that if Superjumping Auxbot would be that OP (because obviously C+ double HFT marker is fine), then at least make a rule so it can moce (normally) while Seraph superjumps.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You don't actually need a new rule. You just need to interpret how Entire Order / Short (Movement) Skill X 2 works for G-Sync and Co-ords.

    Jump (Short Movement Skill) + Short (Movement) Skill / Jump (Entire Order) is functional as a G-Sync / Co-ord declaration, it's just Understood not to be the rules.
     
  15. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly the problem with Heavy Gear. Everyone in the playtest group knows what the rules are supposed to be, not what they actually say.
     
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  16. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Isn't this the same as cautious movement? Except for those ofc who can't do that?
     
  17. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Not quite and I think the fact that you can use it with a TAG is definitely worth mentioning.
    You can use it to make absolutely sure there isn't a Noctifier or other HD troop watching that gap.
    You can also use it to get across a Hacking area you have to enter, but can leave in the same Order without access to Stealth.
    You can also use it to go into BTB against something that is backed up by longer range AROs.

    I've been using the same mechanic with Yojimbo's Koalas and his 6" second Move. But those are usually dead after using them once and they don't work against template AROs.
    The Xenotech is unlimited use, blocks templates, but as a Civvie doesn't block LOF.
    Heck I can run a Nisse HMG up the field now without giving a care in the world about Chainrifles in my Active Turn. That alone is downright amazing.

    So it works against Mines, Warbands, DTWs and gives you the opportunity to "Cautious Move" past scary long Range AROs.
    Having that around lets you circumvent most of the game's ARO mechanisms to spend more Orders killing weak targets in optimal rangebands for you.
     
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  18. MrNailbrain

    MrNailbrain Relentless Optimist

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    It’s worth noting that Privateer Press opened up their playtesting to the whole community and these kind of stupid rules interactions tend to get caught RIGHT AWAY.

    The downside is that people are stupid and there is a mountain of crappy feedback to sort through. Idiotic suggestions, inane banter, and people from other factions shitting on the testing models from other factions out of jealousy. Like imagine how you would behave if Symbiomates were in open playtesting.

    There are pros and cons to open playtesting but the biggest pro is that you will nearly never have anything overpowered. Everything will be a shade conservatively balanced. It’s easier to adjust up the power curve rather than down.
     
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  19. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    Lol ya I remember when they recosted Talon to be like 30% more expensive. Dp9 has been throwing itself under the bus for a long time. I still don't understand the timing in that game for anything other than basic interactions.
     
  20. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    Its a shame cuz the designs look so good. Ive been craving a good table top mech game forever.
     
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