So - We Need To Talk About Tā Moko - Before Varuna

No! you are not, On one hand I understand this topic but on the other hand I aim lost, We are not putting tattoos on a human, We are putting tattoos on an inanimate object, and I can bet my bottom dollar the Maori people don't care or don't even know about our game, maybe we should find someone from the Maori and ask them how they feel, Hey! maybe they will start playing Infinity. Here is a question for us PanO players,. How many of you painted Bipandra as a Indian woman? If you didn't or if you know someone that did not, will you walk away from the game table and tell them you can't play against their army because she is not culturally painted right?
Our game is very diverse when it comes to the number of characters we can play, although I would like to see more dark skin characters so I can challenge myself when it comes to me painting CB figures.

 

I'm sorry, I did not realise you were talking about something entirely else than what is at stake in this discussion, and that is Maori culture. I read your piece quite thoroughly, but also placed it within context of the discussion we are having in this thread.

However, I do apologise for interjecting myself into this conversation you apparently was having with yourself about being offended. I will leave and let you finish it all alone.

"This is counterproductive! It is pointless!" he dictated. Why thank you for sharing your deep and precious insight, it is highly appreciated. Also, by declaring that, you are attempting to dictate our behaviour.

Also, as a minor semantic note, it cannot be both pointless AND counterproductive at the same time. If it is pointless, it achieves nothing; if it s counterproductive, it achieves the opposite of intended effect, but not nothing.

 

Good thread JCJF :)

 

Yeah I'm probably just gonna put some squiggly lines on my dudes and say they have tattoos. If people ask me what he's supposed to be I'm just gonna say a sci fi dude. If they want to know more I'm just gonna tell them that I'm sorry but I don't have the backstory of my guys planned out and this is just pano soldier dude #57.

 

I hope that as a warcor you'd be able to assume it's not somebody being an asshole and walk away from the table if they painted their crocman as a white guy with tattoos. Maybe it's just they're not great at painting. Maybe the dont know anything about Maori culture but saw that angel painted cool face tattoos on him and be wanted to try that too.

 

What if Angel painted them as white guys with tattoos, what would some people do then?

 

You can paint your models how I want and I can call you a absolute fucking tosser based on how you paint your models if I want. Which, if you do so in a manner which is knowingly and wantonly disrespectful to existing people, especially marginalised people, I may indeed do.

 

Fuck, and I thought the "Is the name Kempeitai offensive" thread went south in a hurry...

What I should really do is get a haka going for my Varuna troops. Maybe that one the All-Blacks did with the throat-cutting gesture?

Micron pens. They come in sizes down to 0.2mm, which is almost fine enough to do tattoos. Then mix a really thin glaze of your skin color and wash that over the top of the 'tat'.

We should only be so lucky!

 

Keep posting, you might be accused of being a rabid homophobe again.

 

Very much agreed.

 

Don't confuse race with culture, please. That leads to very dark places.

 

"Race" is an artificial construct, anyway. There are not "different races", only one species that we all belong to; Human.

The differentiation into different cultural groups is just the hardwired tribalism inherent in us as that species.

 

This was a surprising and more ethically responsible discussion than I expect in my day to day nerding. Props to you @AdmiralJCJF.

In regards to cultural design, being Muslim, Haqq was super interesting to me because its the first time I saw the non-wahabi version of Islam explored so thoroughly in the west. Being from Bengal origin before being a Strayan, the Sikh units were super interesting as well because when the hell do you see people from the sub-continent being air-dropping action stars outside of hilariously terrible bollywood movies?
So with all that in mind, I can see why Maori and other pacific islanders might notice the game and make internal judgements on whether their culture was handled tactfully.

That being said, I'm not sure I agree with the assertion that someone that's "white" or at least fair skinned can't identify with a part of their ancestral culture. A lot of indigenous Australians who are half-white struggle with this because they're too white for their mob and too aboriginal in the eyes of rednecks. My kids are halfies and they are WAY fairer than me. For whatever reason my genetics didn't override and my daughter has brown hair and my son has (for now) blue eyes. Doesn't mean they're not bengali. Doesn't mean they're not Australian. Anyone telling them they can't dress in Panjabi's and saari's is probably an asshole.

And I've been told to my face by bengali dudes in the country and in Australia that I'm not a 'real' bengali because I married a white woman and left the country in my teens. I've similarly been told by many Aussies than I'm not an aussie cause I'm not white and I immigrated here... So overall, I really hate people that try to gate cultures :P
Infinity is set hundreds of years in the future. It would only take 2 generations for someone to be quite fair skinned with maori ancestry. Unless you're going to set %'s on your genetic makeup before assigning ethnicity/culture (see WW2 germany for more details), saying the future maori can't be fair-skinned is potentially rude.

I do agree with the overal sentiment for our present time, in the real world however as too many idiots get "tribal" tattoos and chinese characters without understanding the implications.

Back to the game: I don't have the freehand skills for tatoos. I genuinely wish I was robbed of some of my freedom and the tattoos were etched onto the model so all I'd have to do is colour in the lines... I know a lot of people would hate that though :/

 

Not only that, quite a few people keep wearing the necklace with a "letter T" over their necks without glimse of understanding xD

 

This!

Long story short - we should treat each other with respect. We should take extra care when we come from a culture with a history of exploiting other people, because this often results in insensivity so ingrained that we can be jerks without having bad intentions or even noticing. We also shouldn't get into full zealot mode over a damn game.

I fully intend to go for a realistic difference between tattoos on my own models (as far as my abilities will permit). I will not criticise anyone who won't. I might discuss the subject with them, because discussion is an awesome way for everyone involved to learn something. And attacking people who don't live up to one or another sky-high standard is good for only one thing - alienating them, making them much less responsive to any sensible arguments they might've hear later.

I'm an SJW. I'm proud of it. I also believe that to win one has to fight smart.

 

You know... the usual whiteknight asshattery.

The most sensitive people tend to be self proclaimed fighters for a "greater cause".
Actually doing something about a problem is not their thing.... they' rather start 5 forum threads discussing a dead and buried problem that isn't theirs for months after expiration date.

Let's just not be that guy.

 

Not exactly related to the thread directly, but one of the things I quite like about Infinity is how individual units have historical reflections on various nationalities/backgrounds etc. From the African Nomad units to the Maori Croc-Men, or just the cavalry names of the PanO TAGs, it's a really nice touch.