So - We Need To Talk About Tā Moko - Before Varuna

I'm not sure if any of this matters, Guy's this is just a game and paint your figures how you want. No one can tell you what is right or what is wrong when it comes to painting your figures, and please don't feel guilty about it.

 

They could for example, accept mass immigration from Europe and treat them just like natives ^^

 

I despise this notion of cultural protectionism. You don’t have the right to determine what someone can do with their body especially if you’re going to segregate asthetic apparel based upon race. You said previously that you aren’t Māori but you’re more than happy to act on behalf of all of them with your own beliefs.

 

I agree, but you do have the right to believe that people who would make those choices are people that you don't want to play a game with. Whatever social consequences you suffer is on you, but you still can hold that opinion.

 

I'm going to start refusing to play everyone who does or says things I find offensive.

*looks around*

*realizes he has no one left to play toy soldiers with*

*sobs*

 

STOP BEING REASONABLE!!!

 

I mean it depends man, if the culture's important to you, I can't really knock you for getting upset if it's "disrespected". I'm like the most vanilla east coast person ever, so the site of white dudes with rising sun headbands doesn't PERSONALLY offend me.

My part-Chinese fiance though would probably ask them to take it off, and I think that's reasonable. It's all relative.

 

Aaaaand here it comes...

 

Warning! thought police are coming, please put all free thoughts away, and remove anything that makes you happy.

 

This is true. My guys, my paint, my rules. On the other hand, this is also a social game, meaning the cultural sensitivities of your opponent will come into play whether you want it to or not. Any opponent may refuse to play with you if they find your army offensive. You may think they are being overly sensitive, but that won't change their reaction.

AdmiralJCJF, is letting us know that the Maori take this topic seriously. This is helpful to players from other parts of the world, who may not be familiar with Maori culture, that this is more than just a fun design for the Maori people. This can help us to avoid being jerks on accident. Now if you don't care what the Maori think, will likely never play someone familiar with the culture, or think their cultural protectionism is naive, nobody can stop you from painting your dudes however you want.

Personally, I think the moral outrage brigade in the western world has reached levels of near self parody, however, I feel like this issue is legitimate, and I appreciate the oppurtunity to learn more about another culture. I choose not to paint my redhaired freckled crocman with a Tä Moko. (It has absolutely nothing to do with me not actually owning a crocman, or not having the skill to pull off such a design. Honestly!)

 

If we want to talk about things like cultural sensivity, "political correctness", and moral outrage, than I'd really like if everyone would go into this knowing that the issue is far more complicated than the usual black & white nonsense we see being thrown around.

 

I actually agree. If the Maori take this topic seriously, then those who wish to take the Maori seriously should take an interest in what they have to say about it.

But not everyone has to take the Maori seriously. I do, but that means nothing. Others can make their own decisions.

Look, the problem with this sort of thread arises when someone gets it into their head that they have the right to tell others what they may or may not do (with the consequence of violating said rule being moral opprobrium). It's sometimes a subtle shift, sometimes not, from an attempt to educate to an attempt to dictate. And it invariably derails the whole thing, because those who disagree, along with those who just dislike being told what to do by a total stranger, quite reasonably observe that, in fact, they can do whatever they damn well please. And they're right. And sneering at them about what awful people they are--believe it or not!--accomplishes precisely nothing. At all. Nada.

Look, as an observant Catholic, I find jokes about priests buggering boys both offensive and unfunny (even if they are well-earned). But I'm not going to tell anyone not to make those jokes. And I'm not going to try to impose social sanctions on you if you do make them. If someone finds that sort of thing funny, that's cool, I'm pretty confident that I've crossed into territory others would find pretty offensive in my time as well. I'll just form a private judgment of the speaker's character based on that fact plus everything else I know about him and keep it to myself.

To my mind, that's what being a mature adult in a diverse society bursting with people who disagree with you looks like. No one likes a scold, at least where I come from.

My less dickish two cents.

 

So this is a ligit question becuase google fu is failing me, at what level of interbreeding is it no longer acceptable for someone who identifies as Maori to sport Ta Moko? 50% maori? 25% maori? if they are mixed race not by choice (Ancestor was raped by europians during the Maori wars) does that make a difference?

 

I do not take the position that this topic is not important, I think it is but at the same time we or you and even the people of Maori can't make some one paint Ta Moko on their figures the right or wrong way. Yes! anybody is free to walk away from any opponent at any time or for whatever reason, Ok! that is my position, but where will this end at? Today! I don't like the look of your Croc men or I don't like the color on your Nomads, tomorrow it will be something else, By no means, aim I telling any one to disrespect any culture, and if some body paints something wrong and they did not understand this topic or never read it, why walk away from them? why not help them if you feel it is wrong, So! we are not walking away from someone who may be new to our game.

 

Heh, unfortunetaly "road to hell is paved with the skulls of bishops" (St. John Chrysoston).

 

You are correct so far.

Self-reflect a bit. By writing this, you exactly are doing it.

Except these two examples have precisely nothing in common - unless you wish to claim that Catholic priests buggering boys is part of catholic culture? Didn't think so.

The issue at stake is that Maori consider giving a particular tattoo style to non-Maori inappropriate. AdmiralJCJF explained this, and simply suggested - be nice when painting. Issue is when you take a part of their culture and use it in a way that is contrary to the way it was supposed to be used.

It's quite easy : make your Crocman Maori if you're giving him those tattoos, or give him the other tattoos (if I understood correctly). Follow it or don't - but you don't get to complain other people are "making the rules" about their own culture.

If you insist on "don't scold", why are you scolding?

 

Am I the only one who thinks this got reeeeally overcomplicated?
We're talking about far future and infinity lore defines PanO as a "melting pot" of cultures. What's the problem with a "white" guy with those tats? Can you, looking at a model, identify what % "white" he is?
warning: sarcasm!
He may be an %insert culture and skin color% orphan found and raised by Crocmen, so he... has no right to belong to that culture and honor its traditions?

 

Where does the line start to blur between pakeha and maori, exactly?
Can a 1/16 maori (a single great grandparent) but otherwise pakeha get away with it if they "identify" as maori?
Is it necessary for them to know the language and culture as well as share genetics?

What effect will 200+ more years of "blending" have on this?



Just curious, not trolling. My "ethnicness" paled into insignificance in the mid 19th century when my ancestors stopped being part of their own "cultures" and blended with local societies. My paternal grandmother would be scandalised to be called a "gypsy" since she was proudly "Hungarian" (even though her family also had Ashkenazi roots). I've only traced that side back to the mid 19th century (same for mother's side - which flip-flopped between English, Scottish and Irish before emigrating here).

 

This might be helpfull: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mischling

 

No.

You're an expert at being obtuse. The issue I addressed was never culture per se, which is obvious if you'd read what I wrote rather than what you wish I'd written. The issue I addressed was taking offense and demanding that others obey your diktats.

I didn't tell anyone what to do, contra your smarmy comments. I told them that telling others what to do is pointless and counterproductive. If they disagree, they're more than welcome to keep on digging. I don't particularly care either way.

Show yourself out, smart guy.