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So - We Need To Talk About Tā Moko - Before Varuna

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by AdmiralJCJF, Aug 14, 2018.

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  1. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    More easily, you can point out the percentage of people supporting AfD.

    However, equally as much, the huge majority is not just not supporting them, but there is a much larger section actively opposing them. Hence, I think it actually worked. There is literally no way to eliminate such beliefs, especially in this short of time. I also disagree that denazification assumed utter and complete eradication because that was always gonna fail.

    And just to be clear, not a German myself - Croat actually.
     
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  2. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Wait, isn't current president of Croatia "regarded" as some super WW2 nazi/fasism fangirl ?

    Seems we are really going into overdrive xD
     
  3. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    To be clear - I am not trying to say that wide German society is nazificating again, because that would definitely be dishonest thing to say - on the contrary I personaly believe that german society in modern days is one of the best convey of democratic values. Not perfect, but one of the best out there.

    Problem I was pointing at is that we have seen radical increase in nazis belief all over the world (My country included) and that we should be extra careful about how we proceed to deal with that problem. Assuming TOLERANCE under the false assumption that this is how free speech works is not only not the solution but actually part of the problem is all I am saying.

    I would also like to stop talking about this particular angle of the disscusion because I feel like it doesn't really fit the original thread anymore.
     
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  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    To be honest I find the fact that we have similar parades in Poland, complete with the salute, brown shirts, torches, etc. much more jarring. I can see how some dissatisfied German could use nazi power fantasy to shore up his feeling of self worth. How a Pole can do it, is beyond me. Year after year I'm looking at the celebration of Warsaw Uprising and have more and more doubts which side the participants would fight for.

    Free speech issue was covered by Karl Popper's Tolerance Paradox.

    I think @Section9 summed it up perfectly; if someone chooses to be offensive, they have to deal with the consequences. Attitudes like "When I'm saying something you don't like, I'm exercising my rights. When you're criticising me for it, you're a bully" should just go.

    Additionally, arguments about "self-victimhood" and "victim culture" can be correct, but more often than not they're simply used to silence opposition to whatever was said.

    And this discussion as a whole is a good thing. There are multiple topics like this, which touch at something important to us. They don't have to have something to do with the game itself, but there are ways in which they manifest in the game, and as such they should have their place here. @psychoticstorm, maybe at least part of this thread should be moved into off-topic section? We've moved pretty far away from the topic of Maori tattoos now.
     
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  5. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Yes. Or, well, she's an airhead courting nazi/fascist supporters purely for numbers sake. Let's just say there's reasons I left Croatia.

    If anyone is really interested in learning more, ask me via PM (or open a topic in Off-topic section). Lets avoid this detour in this thread.
     
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  6. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Croatian politics is complicated, like all politics. Tudman for example definitely wasn't an Ustase (WWII Croatian fascists), he fought against them personally, but there were Ustase supporters, sympathetisers and "neo-ustase" amongst his base in the 90s. Grabar-Kitarovic is the same party, centre-right, more a neoliberal, I'd say probably not personally a fascist or "fan girl" as you say, but there are some in her base.
     
  7. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Wow, met a first person who apparently did emigrate over politics, and (probably) not only brag about it on social media.
     
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I'm not stupid enough to trust western media on calling someone "nazi/facist", but I'm heck sure that some people would agree that wholeheartly.

    Same goes for mentions of nazi resurgence, and knowing that the main fuss was about some guys having a nazi party in deep woods with some wafer swastika xD (srsly computer gamers have better OpSec than them :P )
     
  9. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Those guys were clowns. Deep woods is the place they should be. The real issue is with those who embrace everything but the swastika, yet march openly in public.
     
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  10. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Seriously, we doing this? Fine :D

    Yup.

    My personal take on Tuđman is, he was power-hungry - and I don't necessarily mean this in a bad way. He wanted power, and he courted whoever he thought could provide that power. In his youth - communists. In his old age - nazi/fascists, as well as more liberal nationalists.

    Also, people change. Could be he became disillusioned with communism and went full turn into fascism. Hard to know. In my view, it doesn't really matter what he was personally - just what he did and how it ends up being.

    That's a pretty fair, but limited discussion. We have same problem like many in the West now; her party used to be centre right but due to the shift in Overton window it is seriously courting the farther reaches of right (example: previous Minister for Culture Zlatko Hasanbegović).

    President herself... Lets just say she feels like a power non-entity, more a PR person than actual decision maker. Her position is more ceremonial and so far, she hasn't been able to use the powers for much (unlike say Mesić previously).

    Ha. It's not the only reason to leave, but yeah.

    Not sure what you are referring to. But in Croatia, fascist resurgence is in the cards. All the conditions are right, and there is no end of events that confirm it. Though of course, little is reported outside Croatia, I mean, we are a small country with little importance (I don't say this with rancor, just how it is).
     
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  11. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    You don't seem to be quite aware what Godwin's law is.
    “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.”

    It's simply the assumtion that over the course of every discussion, given it goes long enough one of the parties, often the more insecure one on the losing side of things will start using Nazis to paint the other party or their argument in a bad light.
    Hillarious really, it happens so many times, by now I have a permanent subroutine in my head constantly checking for it. And it hardly ever fails to happen.
    People are such simple animals.

    I'm don't really care beyond the fact the second someone brings up WW2 bullshit into a discussion about painting metal minis, they've fucking admitted they lost.
    As someone who has to resort to invoke Godwin's Law is usually a bad sport it usually drags on and on and on anyway.
    Contrary to the SJW party I am not here to tell you to do anything other than to leave me the fuck alone about the matter of how I paint my damn Crocmen.
    I'm not telling you not to predjudice against every single right wing member of society, Nazi or whatever. That's your business.
    What I would like you to do is keep an open mind, as the easier to influence members of society can be utter fuckwits, mindlessly joining a cause they didn't bother to even think halfway through.
    Discriminating against them will never fix that, educating them about what they're doing and what it actually stands for will. As far as I am aware Poland is facing a huge right wing problem themselves, so the same principle applies there.
    You'll never save everyone, but you can at least bother to try find out if there is one guy that might not belong in the camp he is in. Bad company corrupts rather easily when you're young, dumb and easily influenced.

    What I did is merely stating that this whole fucking debate is neither social justice or about it. It's also not about being tolerant or being a good person. It's merely some assholes trying to shove down their values of everyone else's throat with no questions asked.
    They evidently don't care to ask questions or what reasons the other side has. They only care about proving they're right and their ridiculous cause is noble.

    It's just what most people do, SJW and Nazi is exactly the same kind of stupid in my book. Takes exactly the same mindset that lacks the need to think for yourself and follows a simple formula. So if you like being part of a faceless mob there you go.

    My granddad was a farmer who would have liked nothing more than to mind his own business. Yet he got shipped off to Russia degraded to pretty much a slave to work in the coal mines. He escaped, made his way back and never had any hard feelings towards the Russians because of it. None of that happened to me personally and the man in question is fine with it. And even if he wasn't, why should I make it my personal calling to indiscriminately hate Russians because of it?
     
    #251 Teslarod, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
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  12. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    [​IMG]
    As the funny anecdote I will add - I have seen people constituting on Godwin law during a disscusion that took place on historical forum in the thread that treated about the reasons that lead to second World War, so there is also that.
     
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  13. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    While it is unfortunate, every movie ever made does not have James Bond in it, because they are not all James Bond movies. but every James Bond movie has James Bond in it because it is a James Bond movie.
     
  14. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So you have a set of properties which are then used to represent James Bond (in the movie) so that you can understand that the imagine you are seeing is indeed the one representing a British secret service agent ?
     
  15. Tom McTrouble

    Tom McTrouble Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]
     
  16. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    Sort of.
    With the use of film language a movie can convey to us, the audience, that anything or anyone is James Bond and we just have to accept that. This because in the world of the movie, which may or may not be inspired from our real world, those are the rules set by its creator.

    Relating this concept back to miniatures and infinity. While Corvus Belli provides us with more than enough content (sticking with the film analogy, this would be a script and CB would be the screenwriter). I (the director in this case) can make whatever creative decisions I'd like along the way, because ultimately it is my project.
     
  17. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    Which is exactly the point. The entire purpose of the unit is to pay respect to the martial traditions of Pacific Islanders, as explicitly laid out.
     
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  18. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

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    Well. They're also a much loved (for vanilla PanO, though I'm sure they'll get much more love in Varuna) midfield infiltrator with X visor and TO Camo.
     
  19. andre61

    andre61 Well-Known Member

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    At some point we are going to have meet in the middle about this topic, I already said I was going to paint my Croc men as Maori, not because of some stupid little hippie cause, and I don't know any Maori people. So! I'm not sure how I'm going to offend any of them if don't, Look! the bottom line is your own gaming group and how the people in your group feel, If they don't care how you paint your Croc men, Then paint them how you want. The guy's that are calling us names on this topic because you don't want to so, just ignore them, and don't post any of your pic's of your Croc men if you think some body is going to give you a hard time, that way they will never find out, and you can move on and enjoy what you do without some dick calling names because he or she is fighting some type of imaginary cause.
     
  20. Koni

    Koni BanHammer
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    Well that was a really sorrow display of etiquette and despite multiple soft warnings given by @psychoticstorm most did not want to have the very basic requirements of this forum a civil polite discussion.

    I'm truly disappointed in the performance of this thread so I decided to lock it.

    Remember guys:

    This is a forum about a game of toy soldiers in the future and not a political arena to spar. Keep that in mind, please.

    If @AdmiralJCJF wants to recreate the topic again, keeping it neutral, we would be happy to see it again. Everybody who tries to politicize the thread again will get an automatic warning and depending on the level of politicization maybe a temporary ban.

    I hope this is understood.

    Thank you for your collaboration.
     
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