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So - We Need To Talk About Tā Moko - Before Varuna

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by AdmiralJCJF, Aug 14, 2018.

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  1. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So you stay in position that "my models, my paintjob" is inherently flawed argument ?
     
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  2. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member

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    You can interact with whoever you want, but the criteria put forward in this thread to declare someone unfit for interaction are far to based in racial theories I outright do not care for. Cultural appropriation is a political club to beat people over the head with and I don’t want that as a facet of my games. Further, I heavily disagree with the brutish way social pressure is advocated for. If you want to just entrench and divide a community, then by all means. This is a good way to start that process. The better way forward is sitting down and understanding that our values and principles are going to conflict. You can express yours and I can express mine. As long as we can be civil, there is no reason we cannot exist in the same space. This doesn’t mean I have to adopt your beliefs, practices or morality. I don’t know how to make this any plainer because it seems that you consider mine and others objection as offense. Great offense even. I don’t want politics to be a driving force in my gaming community. I want a live and let live attitude towards each other. If you get rid of someone let it be because they’re a cheat, a liar, they’re abusive or just plain smelly. Not because they painted something the wrong skin color or took something from another culture to paint.
     
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  3. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So it James Bond can be everything does it mean every movie ever made is James Bind movie ("Apollo 13 the James Bond movie") ?
     
  4. Mirodasc

    Mirodasc Member

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    Sorry for not sifting through the active dumpster fire this thread is, if this hasn't been brought up,
    And maybe I'm wrong, but doesn't the CUBE solve any issues of 'light skinned' Maori? New sleeve, same dude.
    First thing I'd do (if they were of cultural importance to me) would be to go get inked up. Also assuming my new body isn't just my clone.
     
    AdmiralJCJF, chromedog and derbrizon like this.
  5. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    Ya but if you don't bother to say that to anyone who asks, it's offensive.
     
  6. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

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    I suppose a shas pretending to be a human is species appropriation, and I can decline fighting any opponents who field them on those grounds.
    I miss when we could all uncivilly argue about intent.
     
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  7. chromedog

    chromedog Less than significant minion

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    Yeah, I brought it up already a few pages back.

    With cube tech, you are no longer restricted to your identity remaining in the same skin you were born into.
    Your flesh suit and your identity become separate things.

    If you can have a "male" character in a female Lhost body, then a maori identity in a caucasian Lhost is not so much of a stretch (especially if they don't have a Lhost with your specific genotype available).
    If they had the "right" to the tattoos in their birth meatsack, then they have that same right in whatever other sleeve they end up wearing.
     
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  8. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Lot of people really trying themselves in knots here trying to justify not having to spare a moment's thought to how other people might want their culture represented.
     
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  9. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

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    "The survivors formed the core of the Crocodile Men Regiment. Although the Regiment is no longer composed exclusively of ethnically Maori people, they still observe the traditions of its founders, including their distinctive tattoos and subdermal piercings."
    Some might suggest these Crocmen are culturally appropriating the Maori. Some probably have suggested it. You can choose what offends you, who you play play against, and what you bring to the table. But please avoid telling me what I should be offended by. It offends me.
     
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  10. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Good news: on re-reading the originating post just in case I'd missed it, I can happily report that the words 'offend' or 'offence' don't appear anywhere. It is, in fact, a super handy discussion starter on the distinctive tattoos referenced in your post. :)
     
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  11. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Obviously nobody is going to drag you away in the night or smash your minis in your house etc if you paint them in such a way that is very insensitive to other people's culture, but you may be called a dickhead over it. You can say "I'll paint my minis how I like!" until the cows come home, and yeah whatever man, and I'll call you a dickhead if I like, that's how it works. You aren't being "thought policed" here. Your rights aren't being infringed on.

    What you might experience is some social consequence, though. And what you are asking for is not the right to do something but to not be criticised at all for it, ironically displaying the extreme sensitivity you accuse others of. But guess what! I'll criticise someone if I think they're being culturally insensitive or going so far as to be racist etc, and if that upsets you so much, I am unmoved.
     
  12. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Hold up a sec mate. You don't actually get anywhere just by shitting people off; human beings have a significant propensity for responding to criticism by doubling down. I know if feels real good to yell at someone on the internet for being a wanker, but you're not going to get them to actually stop being a wanker by doing so.

    So maybe tone down the disdain a bit. You're coming from a good place, don't ruin it :)
     
  13. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    So this has been going on for several mor pages now. There still isn't someone of the concerned party who gave his point on the matter either way.
    But somehow "I don't care about painting fair skinned crocs with tats" is now actively trying to be offensive.
    Oh and Godwin was invoked multiple times... ofc who could have ever guessed that would happen.

    So still, not your business SJW folks. Leave the painters to paint their Crocmen how thwy want. The thing they're doing is using their rights to do stuff for themselves with things they own and din't plan to push in your facen.

    What you're doing by "critizising" isn't free speech by the way. That's called harrassment. Especially since you failed to uphold your stolen values by namecalling.

    For what it's worth. That is not how you should engage someone playing Infinity minis painted in SS colours.
    Fucking ask the guy if he is serious about it, I'm not gonna sit here and tell you to expect he will have one. But he might and you'll be the easily offended prick who made a scene because the new guy bought an army and really, really wanted to play right away asap before stripping them.

    Actually even if he is a full blown right wing activist. I actually do not care, because the effing game has nothing to do with his antics as long as he can keep them out of there.
    That's called tolerance btw.
    Being judgemental is just what is expected. But it certainly doesn't make you a better person to instantly deny a selected group of people a chance as a result of prejudice. Doesn't matter if common oppinion is you have a good reason or not.

    Try talking to people. After you gave it a shot you can still decide to hate everyone equally.
     
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  14. Cratesbane

    Cratesbane Well-Known Member

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    Many hobbyists welcome criticism of their work, along with suggestions on how to improve in the future. Few individuals enjoy warnings, even if they are helpful.
    Let's say you want to build an infinity table, and not a European one, but one densely packed with skyscrapers, streets, shops, escalators, and planters. Another player you know is a city planner, and after looking at the table for three minutes, he (or she) explains that your board violates zoning ordinances, the streets zigzag nonsensical, and there's a lack of adequate parking for the vehicles. They also claim that no other city planners would play on a board like this.
     
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  15. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    To play the devil advocate here - I am not responsible for someone else lack of maturity neither it should be expected of me to teach them what is expected of a civislied person in modern society. In other words - If I feel like calling them a stupid cunt for such a behaviour I will.

    That's great that you're willing to display patience for such a behaviour but I'd argue that if someone passes certain age, role of wider society (i.e people surrounding him) changes from educating on what accepted pattern of behaviour to punishing such an extreme deviations.

    Fact that you are German and you're telling me, a Polish person that I SHOULD tolerate someones else Nazis beliefs suggests to me that 4D programe in post Third Reich has failed.

    We might obviously argue whether or not a person using miniatures that were painted certain way is actually conveying those particular beliefs. But I will actually go with very crazy assumption that if it is someone is uing very recognazible symbols like swastikas or KKK signs this particular person should be aware of what it represents in modern-day culture and realize that presenting such a symbols is going to bring and outleash on them.

    Unless it is done for educational purposes like for the WWII exhibition or something like that. Casual Infinity games between wargaming people are obviously not that, aren't they.

    You're literally the only person at this thread that has been talking about Godwin at all. Will you stop projecting your bad memories of your past interactions on this forum?
     
    #235 Niebieskooki, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  16. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Nah, he saying that things like "historical recreations" should exactly be persecuted. Afaik germany has some rather strong laws against actual usage of swastika (which I think was recently modified as some computer games can now use it afaik).


    What is hilarious is a fact that your nicname could be taken by some people as offensive and direct reference to aryan race ^^
     
  17. Balewolf

    Balewolf It's all opinion

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    "The survivors formed the core of the Crocodile Men Regiment. Although the Regiment is no longer composed exclusively of ethnically Maori people, they still observe the traditions of its founders, including their distinctive tattoos and subdermal piercings."

    It's been stated numerous times in this thread that it's not the % of someone's blood that makes them Maori and it is instead how they participate in their traditions. It sounds to me like CB has built in a way to be "respectful of the culture" right there, no matter the skin color. If you want to be racist and quiz a player on why he painted his guys with a certain skin color/tattoo configuration when a perfectly reasonable explanation is built into the fluff, go for it I guess. In the age of self assigned victimhood, I'm sure you would get some supporters to help you harass them as well. The more troubling issue is people talking about "severe reactions" relating to someone painting models the way they want when it is supported by the game's story, especially when later talking about wanting to bring duels back or threatening comments of being in a room together. This isn't anything like painting swastikas on your guys.

    Any Crocman having the tattoos is supported by the game's fluff. If you believe this is cultural appropriation and are offended by the use of Maori tattoos and other traditions showcased in the game, take it up with CB.
     
    #237 Balewolf, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  18. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Oh, I completely agree with what you've written here. I'm all for simply tolerating our differences and discussing them, without trying to force the other party to embrace them.

    My problem isn't with the way anyone paints their minis. What I do have problem with, is the "I don't care, it's not a real problem, and if someone says it is, he's an SJW who is trying to force me to do something" attitude. No one here is trying to force anyone to paint their minis in a specific way. The most extreme action mentioned was the AdmiralJCJF post that he wouldn't play with someone. You've said yourself that it's based on theories that you don't care for. And you have the right to not care for it, but at the same time we has the right to do so.
     
    #238 Stiopa, Aug 22, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2018
  19. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    Remember, anecdote is not data. There's always people who fall through the cracks.
     
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  20. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    To be fair denazificiation assumed utter and complete eradication of nazis beliefs in german society. Fact that we had neo-nazi parade just few days ago in Berlin conjucted with the fact that we have native Germans who actually argue that we should TOLERATE Nazi's beliefs as a part of free speech right suggests to me that it is more than anecdotal. It is also not how free speech works.

    And before Teslarod is going to get some form of PTSD once again and cry how everyone attacks him for his nationality - No i'm not calling you a Nazi nor I try to put and equal sign between you and people celebrating Rudolf Hess. I distinctively say that this two problems are conjucted with each other but not the same at all.
     
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