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So... N4 Hunh?

Discussion in 'News' started by AdmiralJCJF, Aug 4, 2019.

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  1. ThananRollice

    ThananRollice Your Friendly Neighborhood Locust

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    Honestly, I feel like Assault hacking devices should be able to give assisted fire. That's a very offensive skill, and it would help justify bringing an Assault hacking device even if your opponent doesn't have any hackable targets.
     
  2. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    One of the big problems of AHDs are KHDs, these are everywhere because it's a cheap way to get an specialists or field REMs and are too good at killing hackers. But yep, I agree hackers in general need access to new toys to justify fielding them in most lists.
     
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  3. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    I think in N4 we should lose access to a lot of weapons because the Concilium Convention says so.

    If ECM did like a Firewall lite and imposed a negative WIP modifier that'd be a step in the right direction.

    Agreed, keep the ammunition option for both types, but Ariadnans get Molotoks and Sphere gets Red Fury. Stays fluffy, while being consistent.

    I like all of these points.

    So much this.


    Honestly sounds like everyone has solid input and cares about the game. This does make my heart tickle (not in the AFlutter sort of way, but in the Grinch kind of way).
     
  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    KHDs should simply cost 0.5 SWC, like every other hacking device. Right now they're an autoinclude.
     
  5. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    I'd actually say the biggest problem with AHDs is that they are far too narrow in scope compared to most* other hacking devices. For their cost, they really should be doing a hell of a lot more than right now... or swap KHD and AHD costs, or something.

    KHD's problem is that it was created to be even narrower in scope, but cybermask makes any KHD a potent** gunfighter. Therefore, KHDs actually have a use even if your opponent doesn't bring a hacker. AHDs are a huge waste of points if your opponent doesn't bring HI or a TAG.

    * DHDs and WHDs notwithstanding
    ** certainly more potent than an AHD with the same loadout, I mean.
     
    BLOODGOD, Ogid, Modock and 2 others like this.
  6. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I mean B.

    But I agree that it would be better to ALSO be able to remove (for example) Courage from some MA units where it's not appropriate.
     
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  7. archon

    archon Well-Known Member

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    So basicaly it should work like a Tinbot A.

    Yes. I never understand, why they are swc free. The are like a heavy weapon against hackers and hackers still have not enough impact on the game.
     
    WarHound likes this.
  8. mazzacheammazza

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    Get rid of a lot of skill, replaced by icons. Icon are easier to read, take less space when printed.

    The same will go for weapon. Less weapon overall, but weapon could have icons who multiply in a very easy way the number of weapons. Like shotgun + fire icon = vulkan shotgun

    Less program, but more useful. Riconsider the split of program among the different devices. Killer hacking device are terrible, need a lot of work, id rather have them specialized in destroying enemy devices

    Tag should come with some sort of TAG power, who represents the support granted by the model

    Get rid of the SMG spam.!

    Rework profiles to avoid the weird situation where old profile mostly have old skills and weapons, while new stuff is full of new skill and toy. This also will help to rebalance cost
     
  9. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Only if you're going to explain how to resolve the AROs to that movement that you declared but may or may not resolve. Especially when there are marker state or hidden deployment models in positions to ARO against the end of the movement path but not the beginning of it.

    That got removed in the transition from 2nd edition to N3 for very good reasons that haven't changed.
     
    Dragonstriker, Hecaton and ijw like this.
  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Personally, I think this would be a bad idea.

    Knowing that all troopers with Martial Arts have Courage and Stealth helps massively with memory retention. You don't have to remember a big list of exceptions, and that Morlocks have MA and Stealth but not Courage, and Makauls have MA but not Stealth or Courage and that Jaguars have Martial Arts and Courage but not Stealth.
     
  11. -Ghost-

    -Ghost- Shalashaska

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    Yes and no. Most TAGs don't need a BTS boost and WIP mod. Just the WIP mod would be fine.
     
  12. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Memory retention is only an issue now because of the stupidity of nested skills.

    Remove the nesting concept entirely and you can play around a lot more without significantly impacting on the ability of people to play their own units.
     
  13. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    That's not my experience, so we'll have to agree to disagree there. I thought you were involved with psychology or education in your professional life?

    So does having all the Skills etc. actually be displayed on the profile, without removing an actual memory aid.

    EDIT - just to be clear, I'm with you 100% that there should never be 'hidden' abilities on a unit, for example moving sideways from nested Skills, an FO's Flash Pulse should always be listed in the BS Weapons, and so should an Engineer's Deactivator.
     
    #53 ijw, Aug 4, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2019
  14. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Nested skills, I presume from the silence on the matter everyone is fine with numerical nesting?
    So no-one is expecting Shinobu to have listed "Martial Arts L1, Martial Arts L2, Martial Arts L3, Martial Arts L4, Martial Arts L5, CH:Mimetism, CH:Camouflage, CH:TO Camouflage, Infiltration, Superior Infiltration, Kinematica L1, Kinematica L2" right?

    Just so we're clear that you all actually like nesting in certain circumstances.

    I'd say consistency would be best.
    Compare Veteran L2 with Morat. Both do nothing other than compile other skills under one heading; one lists those skills, the other does not (and the "space saving" of Vet L2 (SSL2, V:NWI) compared with Vet L1, SSL2, V:NWI is nonexistent).

    While I have and will continue to rail against crits, the lethality of them is the point, and a significant part of the game system. So I don't want them to go (but Fatality 2 can die in a fire).

    It has been my experience that ARM is completely overcosted whenever I am forced to make an ARM roll, and it is grossly undervalued whenever my opponents need to make an ARM roll (and losing a Father Knight, who'd rolled a +3 ARM buff from a Panoply the turn before, and was in cover, in a single burst of shooting in no way affects my judgement of the value or ARM, nosiree!).

    Martial Arts, Guard and Protheion all having similar-but-different charts feels a little redundant, I wouldn't lose sleep over Guard becoming +1B and Martial Arts, Protheion becoming a "gain wounds from damaging the enemy" skill and Martial Arts or something similar.
     
  15. Judge Dredd

    Judge Dredd Well-Known Member

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    I would like to see some parity in the AHD with mods and burst to help it stave off KHDs. Also I would like to see some of the damage on sword programs trimmed down a bit as much of the time it just nukes what ever it targets. Make firewalls apply to KHDs because it makes no sense to have them not protect against the most dangerous form of hacking. Basically I want KHDs trimmed back a bit from their ubiquitous state as is to allow alternate hacking onto the table

    I'd also like to see the variety of hacking programs change a bit. Make interactions with TAGs and hacking less black and white. Have hacking programs give penalties to shooting or potentially buff them in some way.

    Fix costs of skills, equipment and stats that are out of whack with the game. Make smgs either shock or ap or allow for those ammo types to be applied to them, but not both.

    Clarify some interactions and make them smoother.

    I have to rather agree with the crit issue of making it a success but not apply its effects. Fix FAT2 to be more fun to play against.

    I dont have any issues with skill trees or nested skills like so many people seem to. I can understand wanting to break up nested skills though or at least display them on the profile.
     
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  16. Tourniquet

    Tourniquet TJC Tech Support

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    Fix Breakwater and give that to all AHD's baseline, job done. Assisted fire should not exist, and a program to kick models out of a link team would give some nice counter play to fireteams.
     
  17. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    I don't agree that the first case is "nesting".

    But, for the purposes of clarity you could always list "Martial Arts L1-4" and it would cost little to nothing.

    If you don't dislike the negation of Armour and defensive abilities, then what are you railing against?

    There are a LOT of things which need recosting, ARM is just one of them.

    Camo Marker States, for example, should cost more than MSV.

    Yeah, this is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to happen with CC.
     
  18. Leviathan

    Leviathan Hungry Caliban

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    Just make it the hacking equivalent of the Electric Pulse.
     
  19. mameluke

    mameluke Active Member

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    This game needs crits. It'll be a soulless number crunching exercise without them.
     
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  20. AdmiralJCJF

    AdmiralJCJF Heart of the Hyperpower
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    Nobody is arguing for removing crits.
     
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