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So, let's talk about that Morat Update...

Discussion in 'Combined Army' started by DaRedOne, Nov 29, 2018.

  1. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    The problem is the NCO rule is in the Vulkan shotty model. Having it on the Red Fury model would make it pretty baller. Or maybe in all the rakotrak profiles would be pretty cool too.
     
  2. Bohrdog

    Bohrdog Santathematics

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    Well yes that would be better, I'm just talking about working with what we have.
     
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  3. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    Kornak makes NCO a bit redundant. And since i can't see many other viable LT options i don't know if i'm ever gonna make a list without him.
     
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  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Even if you take Kornak, he's not necessarily going to survive for the whole game. Also, the Yaogat LT has a 0.5SWC discount.
     
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  5. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    If Kornak dies i can choose my own new LT. While i can't use that order in a link in that case i can certainly make someone LT that has use for it. (Unless everyone is dead beside that link)
     
  6. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Sure, but now you have more choice. That's never a bad thing.
     
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  7. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand your hostility? Daboarder is being very polite. Hes not saying, "Hey MAF players wtf is wrong with you all? We can't you see how good you got it?" I could see being upset by that.

    But all Daboarder is saying is "hey, this looks cool. I can see this being useful"

    And your blowing up in his face..........why? If his worst crime is being late to the discussion it doesn't make sense to be so hostile over that.


    P.S. I'll say it though. What is wrong with you MAF players? These are good changes. They are not revolutionary but I do think they do help MAF be more competitive.
     
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  8. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    This kind of attitude invites bad behavior. Please refrain from it. So far most of the people have been vocal but respectful about their dislikes, and we would like to keep it this way. We are not satisfied and we are in our right not to be.

    And the reason for not being satisfied is that in an update that saw two new sectorials come out and another one also get a very strong, well thought and balanced update, ours feels slapdash and uncaring.

    The problem isn't that we got buffs or new stuff. Is that the new stuff we got doesn't feel as interested, well planned or even well thought out as the rest of the stuff that came in the same book! This was lip service at best, not the kind of update we expect when Military Orders got a pretty good revamp.

    Hell, FRRM and Acontecimento got better thought out updates when they were shelved! For me, at least, this is plenty of reason to be upset. A Half Hearted update is almost as bad as no update at all.
     
  9. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I think thats a ridiculously cynical attitude. I'd rather have some improvements then none at all. It is quite odd to see that MAF players are upset but combine players who tend not to touch MAF seem more interested in giving them a try.

    I've only messed with MAF for the Suryat paintrain before but now I do feel like they have more viable options.

    And as an Acontecimento player, they certainly did not get a better update than MAF. I'd say its about equal. Minor changes that give some more link options. But MAF needed those improvements far more than shock army.

    His post doesn't read as angry. So not sure what your implying.
     
    #169 Death, Nov 30, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
  10. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Different tastes, different opinions.

    For Vanilla Combined this update actually brings some interesting things. I am going to use that FA sogarat A lot in Vanilla.

    But for MAF, that model not having a lieutenant option is pretty bad. It is expensive, and we don't really have another agressive lieutenant that can pair well with that model. So it comes off as unwieldy and odd. Doubly so because it's the only sogarat option that doesn't get a lieutenant version.

    This is what bugs me about this update. It feels like these were tacked on, they weren't played out, they weren't tested properly or even given enough proper development time. At least it feels that way. And this is a game where profiles are updated in a digital app.

    Remember, when Bit came out she wasn't in MAF either, she was added in because MAF players requested, so it's not like CB can't just go back and add in a couple extra lieutenant options either.
     
  11. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    Also, I would like to say that the whole idea that the Morat rule would be changed to cost nothing so Morats could drop to 12 points was a really REALLY unlikely change. The morat rule is actually quite well worth the points, I find the immunity to Isolation one of the big strengths of MAF.

    His post doesn't read as angry. So not sure what your implying

    Yeah, that we can agree on. NCO can still be use for Mov-Mov orders but overall its not a great option. Its a Morat Major, NCO should be part of his base profile.
     
  12. DaRedOne

    DaRedOne Morat Warrior Philosopher
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    Nobody said it shouldn't cost a thing. We said it should cost less. Look at Securitates, they cost 13 points, but shoot better than vanguards while dodging worse. If vanguards cost 13 I wouldn't bat an eye, but the base vanguard costing 14 is too much.
     
  13. Death

    Death Well-Known Member

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    I think the big culprit for the Vanguard 14 cost is not the morat rule but rather their 12 PH. Stat increase cost a lot, especially +2 PH. I'd wouldn't mind having Morat PH be reduced to reduce their cost. But I don't think this will happen since generic combine army is balanced around having expensive cheerleaders.

    Remember, we already had a cost reduction from 16 points to 14 points for the vanguard. I'm pretty sure thats because the morat rule was made cheaper. PH increases still cost a lot though.

    Again, I think the best link option with this update is being able to take a Suryat in a vanguard link. It is a very cost effective way of boosting a Suryats effectiveness while leaving plenty of room for a Haris and supporting elements.
     
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  14. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    I think some of the cynicism (or at least my own) comes from this update feeling at least a bit ccookie-cutter.

    • HI dude in LI link.
    • An NCO dude.
    • A wildcard thingie
    This is in virtually every sectorial now. From that, it isn't a big jump to think of it (wether a valid thought or not) as morats just kind getting pushed along with the rest of the raised floor.

    Another thought is that raktorak finally has a spot in lots of compositions. Before it was basically raktorak in a kornak Harris or Suryat core, which is a stupidly narrow use for a model. Raktorak is still not even remotely a good solo.

    But the raktorak changes REALLY open the other LT options that go in links. The real hotness for raktorak is tossing him in with daturazi or hungries link.

    The duos on Suryat and soggy are both really good looking now, too.

    I'm gonna have to really think about exploring the new oznat profile, thoigh. That is a really expensive warband troop. I understand it's usefulness, I don't understand it's use compared to some other things. A unit that gets good when "the other opponent brought X" feels like stretching for reasons.

    My biggest excitement is that ten orders morats looks MUCH more varied in options. Otherwise I still look at the 11-13 troops range as a no-man's-land. But then, that's how it feels for virtually every army for some reason.
     
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  15. paraelix

    paraelix Well-Known Member

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    Basically it would boil down to a Pot - Kettle hypocrisy. With him being one of the most outspoken, negative voices in all the PanO forums and forever reacting to any criticism of his approach with the cop out excuse that PanO always loses as a result of lacking; a) smoke, and b) warbands. Further to this is his tendency to insert himself into discussions I am already taking part in, and proceed to; a) take the opposite stance to anything I've said, and b) put words in my mouth as to what I do or don't do with my lists (and c) insist on using that old "Not your list, it's you" statement while continuing to berate people for making lists of sub-par, non-competitive units).

    For example, page 3 where I point out that he is just here to antagonise when he posts a patronising response to Plex, who seems bewildered as to why. He replies to my light hearted quip by telling me I can't recognise good units and don't know how to play the game, and then tells me that I "don't use them and refuse to admit they exist". This is your polite and helpful forum dweller.

    I could go on, and on... But that probably constitutes forum violations. Essentially my point comes down to - he's being completely hypocritical, being dismissive and patronising in his posts, and likely only joining in the conversation cos he knows it'll rub me the wrong way.

    In any case, I've finally given up and Ignored him.
     
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  16. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Dont see me complaining about pano changes.....
    After we got the whole picture.
    Not seeing hypocrisy

    And really its beside the point.
    I originally joined this merely to correct a misconception regarding the inclusion of aro pieces in morats.
    Hell i even acknowledged that they dpnt have much variety in terms of ARO. But variety of options doesnt mean that the options ypu do have are weak.
    And the fact that those options exist in other armies doesnt make you weaker than them at ARO either.
    Particularly not when those options are the staple of almost all sectorials actual reactibe pieces.
    Line infantry linked ML
    B2 flashbots
    And TR HMGs being pretty much the go too as far as reactibe fire goes for most armies in the game.

    I then went on to point out combos and tactics that absolutely had not been mentioned in this thread, a thread that purported to break down all the new changes to morats.
    Given what I said about links hadnt been mentioned in those changes it seems pretty fair that pointing out its strengths was relevant to the conversation of how morats had been improved.

    When i was also challenged on morats being week relative to other sectorials that recieved changes i provided an example of a force which minimizes its weaknesses and leveraged its strengths using the new changes to offer a force that is as strong, diverse and tactically deep as the armies that also were updated this round of changes.

    Finally i elaborated on unmentioned tactics and md tricks of a unit morats have not had access too. That certainly hadnt been discussed here or in another thread and offers very good abilities to the sectorial given the current direction of the game.

    Pointing these out i have been met by you with derision. Not even an argument against what i am saying but complaints about it being me who suggested it, or about 1 or two minor incorrect aspects of what i say. Points that do nothing to change the substance of my arguments about how to actually use what i have illustrated.
     
    #176 daboarder, Nov 30, 2018
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2018
  17. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Yeah but you would enthusiastically argue that a completely empty glass was half-full, and that even if it wasn't that just means there's more room in it for scotch.

    Which is basically the most infuriating thing ever to someone in the middle of venting their frustations into the uncaring void. :P
     
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  18. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Yeah apparently trying to work out how to use the new tools and strengths of the list makes me the worst ;) ah well.
     
  19. RobertShepherd

    RobertShepherd Brisk antipodean

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    Real talk, if someone has a grievance, telling them it's imagined or invalid is basically a guaranteed way to get them immediately offside. I know that wasn't your intention, but it's the internet and tone (and especially bubbling optimism) communicates really poorly especially if the audience is kind of already sunk in their own funk.

    Give people a chance to actually play some games and remember that oh hey Infinity is pretty fun actually and there'll be a lot more reception. :)
     
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  20. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Fine but its eternally frustrating to explaon how to use something to someone and have them just throw it continuously back in your face.
    Its undeserved when you are helping thag person