So about this "points formula"

Proving bolts suck is kinda easy.

So what discussion with IJW on securiate has taught me about bolts is that,

1) They pay the CR+LSG tax, its silly because it basically points LSG+CR based on the fact that you cant estimate 8 and that you always pick the CR, they overprice the redundancy. Dumb but known for a while and not in itself terrible, its fine on baghs, and its hardly an issue on nisse (because you are taking the SWC options)

2) Bioimmunity, its basically Shock Immunity that costs extra, they arent the worst profile to get slapped with this (that would be prowlers probably) but they are close, and mostly its just adding pts for no reason.

3) And this is the new part. After paying for the CR+LSG and paying for the Biouminity, Bolts get hit with a scaling cost for veteran.
IE: because they cost more, their skills (and arguably the only good thing about them) costs more.
Thats ridiculous. The fact that veteran lvl1, a skill which has advantages on cheap troops with high AVA by keeping them regular in LoL, and Elite troops offering protection to Isolation, has a scaling cost says utterly terrible things about the evaluation of its effectiveness.
Bolts are essentially getting slapped with bloat taxes twice over, and that, that right there is enough for them to be utter Dogshite.


So naturally I started finally painting mine up and am excited to use them

 

This absolutely will not happen. Tunguska is the "player character" faction while Varuna is an after thought in the greater story. Any unique or interesting units will upset the delicate PanO generic balance of guy with combi and mimetism and maybe some kind of visor.

 

I know the player that can 10th, and he ran a TAG in all but the 1 game that he lost, and believes if hed stuck with his TAG list he would have won that match

 

Are you sure you want unique and interesting units, or just units that when you set them up your opponent just concedes to you?

Power-wise, I would argue Tunguska isn't as powerful as some of the NA2 armies that were released earlier. They have neat abilities and new rules, but nothing that says "Tunguska will own the tournament scene". (though you might just see a bunch of them because its a new army)

 

Yah exactly like that actually.
I don't think it is a coincidence right after the poor showing that they got a small but welcomed buff.
I don't think it was enough but small changes are better then overcorrections.

Forum posts are not the same thing as proof.

You need to demonstrate that Bolts don't get played in competitive games AND that improving them is needed for the overall faction.
Very hard to do without a host of match reports.

Also for the record I love the way Bolts look but think they are bad units, but it's CB you have to convince, not me, and they might think all that cost bloat is needed.

 

It's far too early to decide if TJC will be too powerful. It doesn't strike me as OP, just a very interesting and flexible force. Quite a few of its units are glass hammers, with good damage output but low survivability. I'm not concerned.

As for PanO my argument for a long time now is that we're good when it comes to power level, but weak when it comes to being a faction that's actually fun to play. It's not surprising that we win games when everyone and his dog has +1 BS, that's what Bostria's famous "PanO was a mistake" comment was about. The problem is that CB has a problem to come up with a good, interesting ways to highlight PanO theme.

 

It always seemed like a holdover from the custom RPG setting that infinity was that nomads were the rebel alliance. Plucky rebels that the players had to help to save the sphere from itself and the aliens.

 

lol yeah that's exactly what i said

 

TJC isn't even unusually powerful. I expect it will be Steel Phalanx-tier, great against newbies and in Limited Insertion matches, but falls apart with the right push from a smart player. The top-tier factions; in my opinion, Ariadna, ISS, Tohaa, and Haqqislam, all have many many ways of peeling apart the kind of 13-order lists that Tunguska will make.

What is bound to be very dangerous for balance now is vanilla Nomads. The only real vulnerability that they still have is no Chain Of Command.

Back in my day, Nomad's vulnerability was the lack of heavy hitters, and the lack of durable units. Now Nomads has some of the most cost-effective heavy hitters and durable units in the game. Nomads has even increased its camouflage game, something was already quite strong at.

And while I do expect one or two cool new tool boxes from Varuna, in the vein of the Black Friar or Locust, I am quite cynical as PanO is no teacher's pet of Corvus Belli.

 

Yes but unless WE also have those statistics. I mean as a game designer if one faction was already doing well in the competitive world I would be hesitant to invest money and time improving it.
Just because Bolts are mid or even low tier units thy might still be "working as intended" and you have to prove the faction needs them improved.
I suspect PanO is to strong to be improved and is pretty much considered "done".

 

Thats a terrible attitude for a game deisgner, and feeds directly into "Boring" as the faction element.

The goal should not be merely power level, it should be power level with varied gameplay, otherwise you may as well be playing chess.

PanO if it is considered "Finished" is an utter failure of faction design, and a prime example of "How not to do it" Because for all the effort that has gone into its design, there is little to no variance in gameplay.

 

Considering there are still three Sectorials to go, PanO is far from finished.

 

Terrible or not it is very common and probably why old PanO units are not seeing or going to see updates anytime soon. It's just not a priority if it's getting play and doing well.

I think it would still be argued there is varied gameplay but for the most part I think you are right.

I am pretty interested in finding out how many competitive gameplay styles you think each of the factions have and should have.

 

The most recent PanO profiles are the Locust and the Black Friar. I don't really think Albedo is a very useful skill, but both of these units have things that make them relatively distinct and interesting, rather than just being a completely generic troop with +1 BS. They don't fix the faction on their own, but I do think they prove that CB is willing and able to shake things up a bit when it comes to PanO design.

 

Psonally I still think both are a bit of a miss.

Mostly because they are packing the Bad kind of bloat I mentioned above, bloat that doesnt mesh with the rest of the profile to provide alternative niche support,

Of the 2 the MSV+Albedo Friar is the best example of how to mnulti role a profile, but even that is stuck 1) with a very poor ranged weapon and 2) with 4-2 movement
wich combine to result in an inabillity to effectively use the albedo role other than potentially forcing the opponents MSV units to hide for a turn.

The Friar would have been a more interesting design if the MSR profile had been built like the MR profile, with albedo offering a long range responce to units that threaten PanOs MSV dominance (We wont open the can of worms that is the validity and valuation of MVS by PanO)

The Locust however, hes a good profile, one of tjhe few non-SWC attack pieces that can fight over 16 in the entire faction, and has enough other interesting bits and pieces to him such as the BS+Grenades and Drop bear profile.
However his CC bloat is mostly just bloat, its not enough to turn him into an effective CC unit, or even a middling CC unit given his lack of marker state and his high points cost. Not only cna he not fight dedicated CC units, but he is at risk still Vs other middling non-CC units.

So both units that could head in the right direction, but neither are really refined and both suffer the same problems as Bolts, its just unlike bolts, theres no competing in faction unit to fill the role.

 

For the CC of the Locust, I find it pretty useful for missions like Looting and Sabotaging. I've used the DA CCW very effectively.

For Bolts, in fact, they could shine more in my eyes just by having Multiterrain. It is silly Wildcats have it and Bolts don't since it is the barebone of the NCA and NCA itself is the most active army outside PanOceania.
This plus the fact that it seems Drop Bears don't cost the same for Bolts and for BF. You could say what you want, BF is really cheap for what it brings. And his role isn't to chase MSV units, it is to chase midfield units without being bothered by MSV units. I know it is weird but this is when he is the most effective. This and a pretty effective and expendable MSV wielder. Our top 2 player in France is playing him a lot and gives hard time to the top 1 french player this way.
To deal with VMS units in overwatch, we have Swiss guards, ORCs, Aquila, Uhlan, Squalo or Hexas depending of the level of the MSV or if it is in a FT.

To come back to Bolts, I think Tunguska is just giving us the argument to play them. They counter pretty heavily Hecklers, aren't Hackable and since Hollow Men dodge just like Fusiliers, they will have problems against all the templates Bolts can bring. Of course, Bolts alone won't win you the game but they will be the rumble team that will recklessly give you the opportunity to mess easily with Tunguska.
And since E/M LGL with X-Visor can be so horrible against non-Camo lieutenants, give them a though against Starco, Ikari, Druze and Qapu Khalqi to avoid LoL at the beginning of your first turn.