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So about this "points formula"

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jun 29, 2018.

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  1. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    You are crazy, CB has nothing in common with GW politics! Nothing, i say!
     
  2. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    b) See Aragoto Combi + LSG being only 3 points over BSG or CSUs being ridiculously cheap with up to 3 weapons. All of them and the Raicho pays about half price for his HSG, which is great. This seems to be consistent for all secondary weapons since JSA.

    This would mean one of PanO's bigger problems the Combi+LSG is already fixed in the formula. But only new releases or reworks got updated Profiles. Personally I'd expect a large scale recalibration of everything with "Acheron Falls", Paradiso Update or whatever the next big book will be.
    As for reasons why CB doesn't update everything everytime they change something, I don't know.
    Best guess is that they calculate by formula but have to input everything manually across the PDF and 3 versions of the Armybuilder as well as Maya. So it would be a lot of effort to go through everything to make sure a large scale change that affects half the Factions is implemented properly.
     
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  3. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I'd say it says very little.

    The Raicho now pays 1pt more for the Morat rule than the Guijia pays for an AP CC weapon. I'd guess the cost being payed by the Raicho for the Morat rule was adjusted in some manner.

    I assume the pilot buff is irrelevant to the point formula discussion. Which all really just comes down to perspective. CB hand adjusts everything in a sense. They decide what costs what based entirely on their own feelings. The point formula is really just those feelings written down. TAGs have been hand adjusted in the form of pilots and higher DMG. The Sphinx and PanO TAGs have terrible WIP because CB decided it to be so. The Raicho pilot has better WIP because CB decided that too.

    It all depends how we look at adjustments. Are adjustments evidence that there really is no formula? What meaning does a formula have if it can be changed at will? Or are adjustments simply the evolution of the formula? To me it's all of the above and doesn't have to be one or the other.
     
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  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Now that you mention Pilot Profiles, that might be the thing they recently readjusted.
    Makes a lot of sense, the Morat Pilot is rather undeargeared in comparison to a Szally or Gecko Pilot. Pilots being part of the cost as designspace for point adjustments seems to be a good idea.
     
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  5. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    That would be a horrible idea in the age of the internet. They have no reason to wait until a new book.

    No one can be that stupid. Regenerating all the point costs should be like hitting enter on a python file.

    I really hope if they update the formula they update everything. If CB has a formula and they stick to that, it just doesn’t make sense not to.
     
  6. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    Mate they're not programmers.
    Ofc there has to be a spreadsheet somewhere, but considering the app still isn't updated, Army 6 and Army Mobile all had different mistakes over time it is safe to say not everything is shared through a common database.

    This isn't about being stupid. It's simply how the systems have grown. CB is a small company, they can't just rewrite everything or might need a 3rd party to do it for them which requires paying for it.
    Friendly reminder that all the apps and builders are free and they have to finance any work done for them through miniature sales.

    I do agree it isn't optimal, but honestly it isn't stupid. It's just what happens when reality hits you in 2018 and you look back at everything from your backseat.
     
  7. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

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    I don't by any excuses here. Army uses JQuery, so they use a Database. Here's how easy it is to use a database:
    [​IMG]
    You press Ctrl+F. You cycle through things that have been updated (in my case, combi+lsg, "Combi Rifle + Light Shotgun"). Then you subtract 2 from each "cost" cell, presuming we both do hand-calculated points, as PsychoticStorm has said is the case. Otherwise, it would be as easy as changing the cost cell of "combi+lsg", which would then change all models calculating combi+lsg. Updating every "combi+lsg" model in this way, using Ctrl+F, would take me 5 minutes if I was distracted.

    And see, then you and your WarCors don't have to make excuses, and your Maakrep and Bao and Bolt users are happy.

    I think CB's problem isn't necessarily favoritism, it is that they are artists. Artists are terrible at doing any work that doesn't interest them right now. I think this is why we see updates go in a wave of new models and updates and fluff and splash art.
     
  8. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    As with you and the point formula your assumption is just that.
    Still doesn't explain how one version of Army is missing weapons and Skills on a Profile.

    So while doing it all in one place is indeed ideal, there are reasons to doubt that.
    It's really nice how you have it all figured out for yourself (and that spreadsheet looks better than mine), still doesn't change you're on a fools errand when your goal is to accurately disassemble things while you ignore cases your explanation can't cover left and right.

    Which Warcors are you talking about anyway? As far as I'm aware I'm quite alone with this.
    The "point values are make believe" crowd are the ones who care more about being right than figuring out why stuff is as it is.

    Please don't give me shit for trying to come up with possible explanations for cases you chose to leave by the road when they don't fit your dogma.
    Not interested to join you in "hurr durr we know better cuz don't ask" land.
     
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  9. gregmurdock

    gregmurdock Extremely Beloved Member

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    Part of growing as a company is learning from your mistakes which appears (in some places) to not be happening. There are regularly blatant mistakes on the monthly release images. Your own example of the army builders having mistakes they don't even share is a great example.

    If you've spent any time in the army subforum you know I'm a huge idiot for having the android app updated, even when it's not my army. I can't even recommend the app to new players right now. It is now three updates behind. I know the app update process is different from updating an online database you control but come on. Tunguska not being in it is shameful.

    The "it's free" argument takes me back to free software from the early 2000s where it was a gamble if it worked or not. Defenders would pour out exclaiming "but it's FREE!" That doesn't mean shit if it does not work as advertised.

    Right now we have a big release coming out. If the rumors are true then Vedic vs Kazaks is the next two player box. These two armies will appeal to players that may not have been interested in the previous four. Space Russians against an all-seeing Gibsonite hivemind is totally out there and should get everyone excited but if the tools to use them correctly are not available then it's all for nothing.

    I say this as a huge fan and full supporter of Corvus Belli. I love this game but they make it difficult some times.
     
  10. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    I have a terrible sensation of "deja vu" about this exact case "they have to write everything by hand, every profile 3 times".

    Also @Teslarod they apparently hadn't fixed all profiles as "Dire Foes" were just "updated" and Konstantinos saw ... welll nothing regarding his glorious combi+Assault Pistol combo.

    Well, how about hiring one ? Experting some nice database for "mugol" use is not that hard to do. Heck Army looks light years better than a GW's Azyr.
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Corvus Belli does have some programmers on staff; Army 6 (web and mobile), the OTM site, etc. were all developed in house as far as I know.

    In general, they seem to like to anchor profile updates to releases, be they models or books. As far as the 2 point drop on the HFT Raicho - from a player's perspective, it's not a very impactful change. From the perspective of the points formula, it's not very informative, either. Any small adjustments to its cost can easily be written off to tweaking to the Morat rule. It's a rule that appears to scale with unit cost, and this is the only Morat TAG, so there's not really any way to compare and isolate the costs.
     
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  12. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    i wouldnt be surprised it it was pts associated with being a TAG with a DTW or something, might be religious could be rounding, doesnt phase me.

    Im glad its a little more interesting, I dont expect it to appease morat players long term (Expect Raicho Full Auto threads in a year or two) but im glad its not full auto and just "PanO plus" like a few of the releases have felt lately.
     
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  13. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    You can however directly compare it with the Lizard. The Raicho is +2 CC, + Morat and +2pts. That seems a touch squiffy unless the Morat cost doesn't scale linearly but rather is more of a curve. ;)

    And even if you compare Pilots: the Raicho pilot gains +D-Charges, +1 BS, +2 PH and swaps 2 x HP for SMG, Pistol. So they seem on par, I certainly wouldn't suggest that the Pilot is driving the price drop.
     
  14. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    If raicho cost change was result of a formula change and not a hand adjustment, I would guess they changed whatever scalar they may use for Morat Rule costing. I suspect if there is a scalar on Morat rule, it's associated with wounds and/or armor, and/or troop type. Previously it appeared to be like 6 or 7 points or something for the Morat Rule on Raicho. Other than resistance to Isolation programs, the Morat Rule wasn't doing Raicho any favors at all. I think CB may have changed their opinion on this. I'm happy for it. The raicho is now a reasonable choice. The hsg and mine dispenser are incredible in MAF.
     
  15. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    Before the last adjustment, people compared the Raicho to the Lizard and the Guijia and made a number of inferences about costs, but mostly it centered on how much of a premium the Raicho was paying for being immune to isolation, and how many points that was really worth.

    None of the pilot or ITS changes affected TAG costs, so I think CB is treating those as being under the board freebies, and/or admission that TAGs had been previously overpriced. I'm really curious to see the formal update to the TAG rules and profiles whenever the next book comes out, rather than things tied to model releases (pilot profiles) and ITS seasons (fatality stuff).
     
  16. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    They seem to sloowwwwlly be moving toward making the pilots a full blown trooper. That they generate no (irregular would be best) order, and they disappear if the TAG itself is destroyed is absolute nonsense.
     
  17. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Imo Veteran is useful on cheap troops, like Securitate, to provide some resistance to LoL (though Chain of Command maybe better), or expensive troops, where the immunity to isolation is actually helpful. Your opponent usually don't have means to Isolate your cheerleaders (hello 5pts Jammer), and you don't have enough instances of Veteran on expensive troops to make that count. On a TAG Isolation is as scary as it gets, so it seems appropriate that Veteran (and consequently Morat) is expensive on Raicho.
     
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  18. derbrizon

    derbrizon Well-Known Member

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    I don't think the cost should scale as it does on Raicho like it seemed to before. Yes, veteran is more valuable on Raicho for ignoring isolation, but religious was only somewhat useful (usually I just want my model to sink an order then tuck in. Religious adding cost assumes there's 100% value in staying put.) Ignoring retreat literally isn't going to happen for Raicho, and in lol you're still probably gonna use the tag, so who cares if it's regular?

    The raicho doesn't need 50-75% of the Morat Rule- so why was (is?) it 2-4 times as expensive to have Morat rule on Raicho? It seems they removed 50-75% of what some suspect was the Morat cost.
     
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  19. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    I really hope Religious is free, because it's value is totally situational. I'm not even sure if V:Courage is worth a whole point, while that can clearly be useful.

    I don't know if Raicho was overcosterd earlier, if it was and it got a proper discount, I'm happy about it. Now the HFT version is 4pts cheaper than the barebones Squalo, and for that Squalo gets +1BS, Remote presence upgrade and -Morat, that kinda seems fair.
     
  20. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    I would cry three times during that 5 minutes. Just have some big ass sheet named "weapon costs", change some value from 3 to 2, and let excel update itself and possibly other linked files as well. It's not that hard, I saw designers do it. I also think that CB could do it, and it's really likely they have some automated methods for this.
     
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