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So about this "points formula"

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jun 29, 2018.

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  1. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Of course we have! We have all the information we need in the army. From that you can create some function that results the exact same data. Then you need to do that again when anything changes or anything new comes out. Obviously you can't read CB's mind, so there's a lower chance you'll create the exact same thing that they did.

    But then we still have brute force and infinite time to create all the possible formulas in existence, one of those would be CB's formula.

    That's not true, you can create some formula to any random set of numbers. But it would be messy.
     
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  2. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Bad wording, sorry. I meant Jammer has the effect really close to speculative fire.
     
  3. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    The jammer is more like a single program hacking device, and one that a lot of troops(anything with veteran, sacrificial impetuous and irregulars)don't have to worry about. It's a weak script kid version of oblivion, a veteran with a shotgun or a flamethrower,or literally anything from 8.0001 inches away and the jammer is flat useless.

    It's a problem for MO and others who want to run a sharp bit of metal through you, but the work arounds are already there since even knights bring guns to the knife fight...
     
  4. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    That's because Jammer also has the No LoF Trait.
    Flamers don't.
     
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  5. Superfluid

    Superfluid Welcome to Svalarheima

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    [oops wrong thread, please delete me]
     
    #425 Superfluid, Jul 10, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2018
  6. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Except it's one of the best hacking programs. Isolate messes up everything, and it messes up bad. There's an insane difference between giving 10 orders to your main troop and giving it 1 order, there's a reason LoL ruins your day. Oh, and it gives you LoL if it happens to hit your LT, it breaks up links, it makes your cheerleader useless.

    And Pano has none of those (let's just ignore Bolts as they deserve to be ignored). That's far from being a lot, and apart from the occasional Veteran they are likely not your heavy hitters or the ones you'll score objectives with, so don't pretend it doesn't hurt.

    Did I mention it hits EVERYTHING? Not only HI/REM/TAG/Hackers, like hacking programs do, everything.

    The AHD alone that you need to unlock Oblivion costs more than a Muttawi'ah. And a Jammer hits a lot more types of troops than an AHD. There goes balance.

    Except it's ridiculously easy to hide it out of LoF. For 5 points each you take 4 of these, coordinate them up, so you have 4 disposable roadblocks, if they go away you lose nothing, but your opponent can't ignore them, but have to spend lot of orders to flank them and move to your 8"+epsilon range. And if your opponent spent more than zero orders on your 5 pts irregular road blocks they've more than served their purpose.

    Oh and they also have 10.5" templates against anything that try to get a LoF on them, so you have a bit more flanking to do.

    Just no. They cause a lot more problem than that.
     
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  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    That's true, since we're starting to get into statistics, better known by mathematicians as "creative lying with numbers" (and damn do the statisticians hate it when you say that!).

    But when I can reverse-engineer a very close approximation of CB's points formula that consistently gives answers to within +/-1pt, in less than 6 hours, using pencil and paper, I'm willing to stand by my statement that there is in fact a points formula. If I did that work, I'd also be able to tell you where and what models are exceptions for my formula. Could probably sit down and crunch through it in 30 minutes with computer support.
     
  8. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Guess what MO fears too: E/Marat so every space within 10.5 is a no-go-zone. Additionally against hacking you can send a Order Sergeant to kill hacker/repeater, but Jammer is still effective on him.

    Not to mention Jammer can "discover" TO markers always on 15s ^^ (who the heck need a Sensor in Haqq?)

    Funny enough Jammer counters/punishes hard 2 main MO gameplay options: expensive HI and use of TO to slow down enemy.
     
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  9. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    I'm aware of that. But flamers have Intuitive attack, so you can use it without LoF, like through smoke.

    I still think Jammers have reach like spec fire because they are ZoC + No LoF weapons. Basically you are shooting with a spec fire weapon with a 0"-8" only range that ignores the -6 of Spec fire.

    Than you are a lot better in coding math than I am.

    Imo it's easy to figure out costs for weapons, since their point costs are mostly consistent throughout profiles, and you have different weapons on mostly exact same profiles. The problem is with breaking down stats, since their context differs a lot more. you can't really find troops with the exact same loadouts. The closest thing you have is the basic line troops like Fusilier and Augisomething, but even those differ in some part (this two may be exactly the same, but other basic troops like Kamael and Ghulam surely differ).

    Exactly.
    Intuitive attack. Yay!

    I think we are missing this from the wiki: http://wiki.infinitythegame.com/en/index.php?title=Labels&redirect=no#No_LoF
     
  10. Teslarod

    Teslarod Trebuchet Enthusiast

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    @Section9 you're not gonna come close to anything resembling the proper formula in 6 hours.

    That amount of time lets you explain basic troops that are only stats and guns.

    - A guy who spent more than 6 hours building a spreadsheet and isn't anywhere close to +/-1 points for half the troops.
     
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  11. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Hence why it's a problem...
    It's a pain in the ass, but it's not insurmountable. It's a drain on your orders most of all, and that's another issue for MO...
     
  12. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Nah dont forget most hilarious thing, Ghazi might still successfully smoke-dodge and still be able to jamm you.

    I was mostly poiting out how awesome weapon Jammer is and thats untrue that there a "broad" selection of targets immune to it. It's reveresed, everyone bar few units are targetable by it, and additionally it can directly attack all camo markers (on awesome WIP15). Thats a better order efficiency than a Sensor.
     
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  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
    Warcor

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    That's not necessarily true; Sensor is still better at countering Camo (area reveal, no recamo zone - especially if you have Sniffers on table). It's useless in ARO, though.
     
  14. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    It's not necessarily wrong either. 1 order to discover and attack (IMO) trumps revealing potentially more, but then likely being unable to deal with them
     
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  15. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    If you happen to have an alive ghazi on your active turn, you can just walk around in your smoke screen, and Isolate everyone and their mom. And your opponent can have fun with the remaining order pool.
     
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  16. theradrussian

    theradrussian Well-Known Member

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    INTERACTIVE GAMEPLAY AT ITS FINEST :D
     
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  17. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    What? You can interact! Once, with each of your troops.
     
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  18. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    So, the newest case of Raicho.

    His "old" profile with HFT just received a discount of 2 pts and upgrade of +1 WIP.

    (I don't want to argue here if he needed it or dont, this is not a point)

    But what does it say about "point formula" ? Is this situation because:

    a) Raicho was not recalculated under newest point formula and his cost was simply "outdated" ? (funny questions is how many other units/profiles might be outdated in such a way)
    b) general formula was updated and it resulted in Raicho being cheaper ? (if so were other units recalculated too, or was the "change" in formula so simple that it had resulted in only Raicho being changed ?
    c) formula was hand adjusted just for him
    d) <other scenario>
     
  19. Modock

    Modock Well-Known Member

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    e)The profile was changed to boost sales of the new Raicho?

    Joking aside, I hope this trend will continue throughout all factions.
     
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  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    I fear it's not a joke, and if we expect to see this... well, it worked for Games Workshop for a time. Then they had to reinvent themselves and reset the game (fantasy) or drop a new, clean edition (40k).

    I have no intention to keep buying CB products if they go that way, frankly.