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So about this "points formula"

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jun 29, 2018.

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  1. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    I tot him up to be 29 before Albedo, BMV1 and Religious come into play, so if he gets a discount from Religious thanks to some stat threshold, further discount from Albedo and the 4-2 MOV combining (maybe, it's the only other negative synergy I can see), I can see him coming in at 28.
    Oddly enough the debate is whether a CCW is actually an upgrade over a knife as it loses shock for +1 dam.
     
  2. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    My derp on the availability of drop bears. Hard to get all the data from army.

    MSR is 8pts, MR is 4 (check fusilier and hospitaler) upgrade from a combi. Drop bears is 3, so you have 1 pt for albedo and biometric visor. My guess is albedo is free and the visor is 1pt.
     
  3. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    But if you are literally adjusting the formula to get a desired point result for one unit. It is no different than hand adjusting the cost. You are just going about it in a roundabout way
     
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  4. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    Not really, because the formula stays the same and with increased cost come new toys. How useful are those is a matter for debate, true.

    And yes, the main problem with the formula is the way some pieces are priced.
     
  5. Skoll

    Skoll Well-Known Member
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    I think you misunderstood what im referring to.

    Im not saying the formula for all differ.

    Im saying there is factually no difference from me saying "fuck it order sgts are now 11 points " without listening to the formula.

    To going back to the formula and adding clauses that say specifically under order sgts . Say Combi rifles are worth 0 points.

    Its basically a round about way of still hand adjusting a specific cost.

    Yes the formula didnt change for everybody else. But now order sgts. Are not playing by the same rules.
     
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  6. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    I know people enjoy arguing about this kind of thing, but the fact of the matter is that it doesn't really matter. CB makes points costs, and those are the costs we get, whether we agree with them or not (and I can't speak for anyone else, but there are points costs in N3 I disagree with).

    Since CB both makes the formula and the units, there's no real distinction between saying that they tweak individual costs sometimes or that the formula contains exceptions for certain combinations. They decide what every new skill costs, they decide what all the exceptions are, and they decide which units qualify for which exceptions. It's all just semantics at that point.
     
  7. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    I would say that everything better than Combi but cheaper is underpriced rather than Combis being too expensive. Can you imagine the chaos if Combis were made cheaper even by one point? I don't know about you lot, but I would prefer if the game stayed at the 10-16 units as design and 20+ being an oddity rather than the norm.

    And speaking of Combis and their usage, how would points change if these adjustments were made to Konstantinos:
    1. Linkable profile loses Combi in favor of Marksman Rifle
    2. Infiltration profile loses Combi in favor or second Assault Pistol or Light Shotgun (I was about to mention SMG, but let's not go crazy here)

    I do not know the points formula (and care to remember it; I've only so much brain space), but I'm curious about something like this.
     
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  8. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache
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    What chaos? Check how many Combis you take in a usual list. That's how many extra points you'd have in that list. Would it break 6 on average? I doubt it. Aleph would gain the most though... :D
     
  9. SmaggTheSmug

    SmaggTheSmug Well-Known Member

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    There's usually 4-6. More in my Corregidor lists for sure.
    One point less for Combi would certainly devalue BSG a bit. I just said this number, but what cost should Combis be according to people who say they're overpriced? I've not seen a hard number so far.
     
  10. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    What is really overpriced is Combi+LSG.
     
  11. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    I think there are a lot of things that are underpriced. Like compared to a combi rifle, Boarding shotgun is -1 pt, but a Light shotgun is -4 or -5, and a chain rifle is -9 to -6, submachine gun is like -4 to -6. I'd really like to have Fusiliers or Machinists with Light shotgun, sadly that's likely a design decision that it won't happen (maybe not even a bad one).

    Oh and the Jammer has Speculative fire without the -6 MOD, which is a bit weird.

    I messed this up. Grenades + Drop bears seem to be 1 pt on Locust, and you get a tonn of stuff for -2 points on the Friar multi rifle. But I'm getting really confused.

    And I also see, why you said CSU has SO for free. Rifle + LS usually the same price as a combi. Still breaker combi is +2 on combi, and that profile seems correct.
     
    #411 Zsolt, Jul 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
  12. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    That's because it's Intuitve Attack, not Speculative Fire.
     
  13. Stiopa

    Stiopa Trust The Fuckhead
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    I think we both did, in a way. I was talking about addng bloat to units, not about including special clauses for them in the formula.

    Oh dear god, Jammer circular template with SpecFire, let's hope CB won't go this way...
     
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  14. Teslarod

    Teslarod The Squeeze has not been Sqouze

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    The biggest flaw in pricing is Order economy. A Mutt would be way, way less annoying if he wouldn't bring 2 Orders for himself and the ability to be a considerable threat to things 20 times his price with a lucky ARO.
    For 5 points he's worth it if he eats an Order on his own and dies for it. In reality he does all that while being Dogged and bringing a Smoke ARO to also get the possibility to swamp several more Orders.

    I don't know how to fix this without breaking the entire game at a fundamental level.
    First of all I don't believe 10 Order lists or the Limited Insertion format are fun or balanced in the slightest. Perfect balancing in between 10 and 30 Orders is impossible and something the players have to be held responsible for to some extend.
    Still 10 Orders could use some more help and 20+ Orders could make do with the nerfbat.
    When spamming dirt cheap troops actually has downsides for your overall economy, people would actually have to think about running max AVA Galwegians, Mutts, etc...


    ?
    Step One - designer dude says he does everything by a secret formula.
    Step Two - random guy claims he does not.
    Step Three - there is none, no reason to question Step One for a reason as trivial as this.

    A little disappointed you took the easy way out instead of racking your brain to come up with explanations for the exceptions we encounter.
     
  15. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

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    "Rack" your brain all you want, I will keep my sanity and good judgment.
     
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  16. A Mão Esquerda

    A Mão Esquerda Deputy Hexahedron Officer

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    It might also be worth thinking about multipliers/modifiers that we are entirely in the dark about. Is there an LI modifier? One for garrison vs line troops? Or for intended role in the faction vs intended role in the sectorial? Do the intended Fireteam options add a modifier? At the end, we don’t have enough information to fully reverse engineer it.
     
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  17. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Or there's some rounding, because some things don't actually cost a whole point. Like CC, which seems to cost 1pt per 3CC. Zanshi versus Fusiliers is a rather contentious case in point. The best-fit reason is that the Fusilier costs something like 10.4 points (rounds down to 10 points), and the Zanshi costs something like 10.63 (rounded UP to 11 points).


    If there is no formula, we wouldn't be able to reverse-engineer one. The numbers would not be consistent enough.


    Yeah, that's got some significant anti-synergy going on. You're paying for the combi's +3 from 0-8" and you should be using the shottie there because it's +6.


    Modifiers for troop type (LI or whatever) and classification (line or whatever) would be relatively easy to reverse engineer. We'd see evidence of them with otherwise-unexplained price shifts as we went from Garrison to Line to Veteran, etc, or WB to SK to LI to MI. I haven't bothered to reverse-engineer anything since N3 dropped, so have we seen any such odd price shifts (I don't mean SWC, which is explicitly hand-adjusted, I mean points)?

    Role in faction or sectorial would be a lot harder to isolate, as would Fireteam options.

    Those are certainly possible variables in CB's points formula.

    We've also found evidence of WIP and BS scaling, getting more expensive going from BS14 to BS15 than going from BS12 to BS13.


    But from evidence, what CB does is make the unit as they want, and then add non-synergizing skills and/or equipment to add points to the profile until it costs what they want it to for army balance. They don't just add more points. What was the most recent example, one of the Umbra? @ijw , weren't you the one who mentioned that?
     
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  18. Stevo

    Stevo Member

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    The NDA has long expired. I worked for a chain of restaurants called Village Inn. The pancakes are pretty good.
     
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  19. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. You can't hurt anything with a flamer template that has total cover from the Blast focus. Jammer doesn't care about that. You can jam something in an enclosed space or whatever.
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    Jammers don't have the Speculative Fire Trait, they have the Intuitive Attack Trait.
     
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