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So about this "points formula"

Discussion in 'PanOceania' started by eciu, Jun 29, 2018.

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  1. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

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    I was writing a longer reply explaining the CC cost, but, we should actually honor the "do not publish formula request."

    All that I ask is that dissenters to dissenters acknowledge that the foruma—whether or not we have a full understanding—has inconsistencies.

    (And that we are not manic hater manbabies for being displeased.)

    Regarding Star Wars, it's best to look to the toys to see why/whether it's a dead brand. Not only are the ticket sales in sharp decline after the last film, but the toys haven't been selling, for years.

    This video had a follow-up with the closing of Toys-R-Us and found the same packed aisles of Star Wars toys. Neither kids nor adults are really fans any more. Disney needs a sharp change in direction if they expect their theme park and spinoffs to do well. You can't tell the market what it should want; the market wants things, and you have to try to figure out what that it is, make it, then sell it. The "you are a ____phobe if you don't like our casino planet scene" will not be a winning strategy for this series.
     
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  2. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Fusiliers are exactly fine, OS pay 3 points for +1 WIP, +2 CC and Religious.
    Securitate, I've already pointed out, either get Veteran for free or pay less for WIP 14 than anyone else seems to.
     
  3. Barrogh

    Barrogh Well-Known Member

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    Tbh it's a bit weird that Religious costs points in the first place, being situationally good or bad, especially when Courage is (supposedly) pretty cheap.
     
  4. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    You win by saving what you love not through killing baddies!
     
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  5. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    I'm pretty sure it scales off something, and provides a discount once certain stats increase beyond a point, I just don't know what.
     
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  6. Darkvortex87

    Darkvortex87 Combat jump kamikaze

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    The problem with the various existing "point formula" is that they don't actually care about the usefulness of said skill/equipment based on the "chassis".
    Example: a chain rifle on a 1W, 5 point body is certainly more useful than the same chain rifle on a 1W, 50 point body.
    So, the 5 point body should pay more for the chain rifle than the 40 point body.
    Same can be said for things like Dogged or NWI, veteran or any other skill, really.
    Stats are definitely harder to balance, since they have diminishing return in FtF rolls (the difference between 15 and 16 WIP is definitely smaller than the difference between 11 and 12), but at the same time they should cost more if the "body" is a multiwound/resilient one.
    I'm no mathematician, but I can see many flaws with proportional or "direct" point formula.
    Maybe CB should invest a 500 euro in a math/statistic professor that could indicate some formulas to mimic the various interactions of the skills and stats on actual "statistic". This way they could use those formula to calculate the actual cost of a trooper based on actual statistical values.

    Of course, current "point bloat" (CC on a long range fighter, additional weapons, etc)
    will still incour
     
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  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Bolts honestly look more like a YJ unit than a PanO unit. Not as good at any one role, but competent at several, including giving opportunities to other units. This makes them really stand out as 'poor' units in PanO, where everything is optimized at one role.

    Except for the Combi+LSG, I think Bolts are pretty good!


    Yeah, that's a pretty good comment about the logical fallacy at play here.

    The points formula is one of the things that CB can copyright or treat as a Trade Secret. Because it is relatively easy to reverse-engineer the units in N3 and HSN3, we can look at various models and say 'an HMG is consistently 8 points more than a combi.'

    CB is OK with us reverse-engineering the points for specific items (and saying what those points are in the forums). Particularly when we're arguing that whatever model is incorrectly priced.

    CB is NOT OK with us sharing the complete reverse-engineered points formula. And they have the right to ask us not to share it. They did in fact ask quite politely back in ~2008 or so, which is why I am still willing to abide by that request (despite how mad I am at CB lately).


    Rounding of fractional costs is the easiest assumption to make that fits the data.

    Also, we know that some things scale with other stats. For that matter, BS14->15 is more expensive than BS13->14.


    Well, yeah. You get that when someone you want to succeed doubles down on something that did not go over very well.


    My assumption is that there are a lot of things that are fractions of a point, so it's really easy to have edge cases where things stack up to cost ~10.6 points for a Zanshi and ~10.4 points for a Fusilier (though my initial assumption was 1/4pt levels not 1/5 or 1/10). Then you round and all of a sudden there's a 1pt difference that we the players see, even though the actual points difference is maybe 1/5pt.
     
  8. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    Oh god yeah, all the non-CR+LSG profiles are fine.
    Imagine if the BSG was the base for the Paramedic and Lt. and the DB were a replacement for E/M Grenades on one profile. Suddenly a MI FTC for ~105 points with area denial and all the short-range punch you could want backed by a spitfire...
     
  9. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Designers and their excel sheets :D
     
    #389 Zsolt, Jul 9, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2018
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  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    How can you claim something is inconsistent when you can't explain how it's consistently supposed to work?

    Even if we knew the formula precisely and CB knowingly strayed from it in certain cases what does that tell us? It tells us that in CBs opinion they felt a point cost should be adjusted. But is it really a manual adjustment? Maybe CB added an exception in their formula to cover situations where certain combinations give discounts or taxes.

    What would be gained from having the inconsistencies players can't explain, explained? Would knowing change our opinion of those units? Wouldn't we all simply have one more thing to give an opinion on?
     
  11. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Seems 1 pt to me. Combi to breaker combi is a 2 pts upgrade (e.g. Zhanying BCR and boarding shotgun sensor versions, boarding shotgun is 1 pt cheaper than combi) and so breaker combi CSU is 4pts more expensive than the BS+ nanopulser one (1pt to combi, 2 pts to breaker, 1 pt SO).

    On the 2pts to breaker combi: Umbra Samaritan spitfire and breaker combi profile, 4 pts difference (and spitfire is +6pts to combi). And also check senor massacre.
     
  12. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
    Warcor

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    I'm 4 pages late to this... but is no one else curious about the pancakes?
     
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    Well the NDA was signed so we cannot ask poor guy to get into legal troubles...

    .. don't we ?
     
  14. tdc

    tdc ALEPH Fragment
    Warcor

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    The NDA was about the recipe (with a 3 year time limit which may or may not have expired)...

    At the very least we can surely discuss things like what kind of pancakes they were... :)
     
  15. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

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    The breaker combi varies in price (see Locust–or is it the Drop Bears that vary in price?), so it's not there that I would point: the Rifle + Light Shotgun should cost 13 points net. But it's 12. So, either there's a weird exception clause discount of specifically Metachemistry units with R+LSG, or it's inconsistent.
     
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  16. Wombat85

    Wombat85 Well-Known Member

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    This is the stepwise function in inditial notation( number<x-triggercondition>^0 )It says that if x is ever greater then the trigger condition then apply the number, else it is zero. they just set the set condition as something unique to the CSU and boom, still a math equation, no hand touching.

    I again stand by my previous statements, just because the math is complex, doesn't mean it isn't there. If anything this thread just reminds me more and more that when people don't understand math and science they believe it to be magic and trickery.
     
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  17. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

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  18. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    Drop bears are only on bolts and Raoul. It’s 3 pts on bolts, and Raoul is a bit complicated to dismantle.

    I tried to calculate stuff on locust, then I found panzerfaust is either 2 or 3 points. No I’m stuck.

    I suppose there’s a lot of circumstances that modify these points. It’s a bit entertaining trying to find out what they are.
     
  19. Magonus

    Magonus Well-Known Member

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    Drop Bears aren't on Locust and Black Friar?


    MULTI Rifle Nanopulser Drop Bears Black Friar alone should tie him in cost with MULTI Sniper Black Friar, but MR Black Friar also gets BMV and Albedo, and a 2 point discount.

    You need to face it, man. This is not a set formula.
     
  20. Zsolt

    Zsolt Well-Known Member

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    It’s totally possible, that there’s a formula, just more complicated than this. I believe psychoticstorm, also it’s totally unmaintainable to handle hundreds of profiles without some way to generate the points. My guess is, they decide what kind of troop they want to see, set it up, and if it seems to be too cheap, add some bloat.

    It doesn’t seem like a good idea to hand adjust more than this.
     
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