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Smoke to Cover Friendlies

Discussion in 'Rules' started by M0Dark, Apr 24, 2018.

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  1. M0Dark

    M0Dark Member

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    Can you as an ARO throw smoke to cover a friendly from subsequent attacks?
    E.g. can F1 react to E1 idling and throw smoke to the grey circle.
    I know that it will not prevent the attack on which the smoke is thrown. And will leave F1 totally open to attacks, but is this possible?
    I think not as an ARO must target the activated model. But does the Target less trait of smoke allow it?
    upload_2018-4-24_17-1-46.png
     
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  2. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    This is legit, the targetless trait overrides the requirement to target the active trooper.
     
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  3. M0Dark

    M0Dark Member

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    Thanks, Its too hard keeping track of what overrides what.
     
  4. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

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    This doesn't seem like it is correct.

    I think Smoke in ARO is required to block LoS to the thrower and will not provide protection to anyone else until the next order. E1 would still get an unobstructed shot at F2 even if the smoke was successful.

    I think the purple would be proper placement for smoke protection for the following order.

    SmokePlacement.png
     
  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The requirement for an ARO is that it targets the trooper activated by the order. Smoke BS Attack has the Targetless trait which specifies that it doesn't need to target a trooper at all, hence it can be placed on the table and not centred on the active trooper. Note that AROs do not require your action to be a Face to Face - which is the only difference between the placement of Grey versus Purple in your diagram.
     
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  6. MikeTheScrivener

    MikeTheScrivener O-12 Peace Kepper

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    This is incorrect. Targetless is a trait that lets us throw it wherever we want, bypassing the norm.

    There is a simple hierarchy of rules. always follow the base rules unless a piece of equipment or skill tells us otherwise, then always follow the mission rules over those.

    e.g.
    "You must deploy in the deployment zone"
    "I have infiltrate that lets me bypass this base rule"
    "The mission uses confused deployment so I must adhere to those specific rules."

    "I must target the trooper who spent the order in ARO"
    "Targetless lets me target a point on the board rather than an enemy trooper."

    There are very few cases where this holds up.
     
  7. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

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    Or we can go to the FAQ:

    N3 Frequently Asked Question Updated: 1.1
    Q: Can a miniature throw a Smoke Grenade to protect another figure from an attack?
    A: No. In a similar way to a Dodge, the Special Dodge provided by throwing a Smoke Grenade can only protect the throwing trooper.

    Wiki
     
  8. jfunkd

    jfunkd Rebel Myrmidon Graffiti Artist
    Warcor

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    That is a rule explaining why the smoke special "dodge" doesn't work to protect other friendly units during the FtF roll where the smoke grenade is used, not a rule to tell you where a smoke grenade can be thrown.
     
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  9. M0Dark

    M0Dark Member

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    Yeah I knew it wouldn't stop the attack on which the smoke was thrown, as per the original post, however it stops all subsequent attacks.
     
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  10. itsuncertainwho

    itsuncertainwho Well-Known Member

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    Did you not read how smoke "special dodge" works?

    Smoke and Special Dodge
    Unlike other Special Ammunition, Smoke can be used to avoid enemy Attacks, but only if those Attacks require LoF and a Roll, and their LoF is blocked by the Smoke Circular Template being placed.

    *Emphasis mine.

    So if you are trying to use the "special dodge" of smoke it requires specific placement. If you are just throwing smoke placement doesn't matter and it won't take effect till the end of the order.
     
  11. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    You can still make a BS Attack ARO with smoke to any visible point on the board thanks to targetless, it just means that the special dodge trait of the BS Weapon you're using doesn't kick in.

    Very useful for protecting friendly models from subsequent Orders, or dropping smoke on an MSV2 sniper.
     
  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    The point of the question is to not use the Special Dodge trait, but to throw the Smoke Grenade somewhere else to protect other troopers in subsequent Orders. For example covering an Intruder.
     
  13. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Had this come up this weekend with regular grenades. Can you ARO shoot a LGL at any point on the ground?
     
  14. colbrook

    colbrook Black Fryer

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    Sure, a smoke LGL is a BS Weapon with the targetless trait, no different from smoke grenades for these purposes.

    Wait, I misread, a Normal LGL or grenades does not have the targetless trait so must target the active model with any BS Attack AROs.
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
    Warcor

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    Not for normal Grenades (or Stun Grenades), they lack the Targetless Trait so must target the active trooper. It makes no difference if they're thrown, or fired from a Grenade Launcher.
     
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  16. oldGregg

    oldGregg Well-Known Member

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    Awesome! Thank you @ijw

    Does "targeting" a trooper mean only your template must hit him? (With grenades).
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Except for grenades with Targetless and grenades shot using Speculative Fire, it means the grenade template must be placed centered over the main target's base (the center of the cylinder, so any height up to the height of the silhouette).
     
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  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    On my last game (I was in my Reactive turn) I literally had a Daturazi behind a MSV3 HMG Charontid but with LoF to the enemy... Cue the enemy Fireteam (lead by Hector) move and eat a Suppresive Fire barrage, while the Daturazi managed to smoke the Charontid.

    Funny how it turned out, since then he had SS2 thanks to have 4 members, but was unable to target the Charontid, so I could fire the Charontid's Suppresive Fire against the non-leaders of the fireteam for free (since only the leader can fire while in Active turn), forcing him to spend several move + dodge to get out... and losing some wounds to it. And since all members had to declare the same order, move + special dodge was not possible (only Machaon carried Eclipse grenades, and Phoenix would eat 3 bullets if he would do that!).

    Just that messed totally the game, I confess...
     
  19. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Move+BS Attack is perfectly possible.

    Out of curiosity, why not break the Fireteam, have Machaon throw Eclipse and then reform the Fireteam?
     
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  20. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    The fireteam (on his active turn, without MSV) declare Member X as Team Leader, and Move. I can see 2-3 members of the Fireteam. I declare, from inside the a smoke template, shoot against Member Y, who has been activated as part of the Fireteam. Considering that 6th Sense refers to the "user" (meaning "model", I assume, and not "Fireteam" as a whole), Member X cannot fire against my Charontid because he has not been the target of an attack.
    I mean, it's like me firing against a fireteam, eating the leader's fire to take down a member that is not hard to (for example, a Daktari in a Starco's Brigada Link with a Dakini).

    I have no idea why he decided not to break the fireteam, I suggested him to use Machaon's Eclipse grenades since it was a practice match of his greeks.

    In case you are wondering, he was running a Machaon+Hector+Phoenix+Chain Myrm, 2 Thorakitai, a thorakitai engineer, a Total Reaction, Scylla KHD with 1 devabot, and K1 Teucer (for TAG hunting, since the list was for a tournament with LI and TAGs). Mine was Charontid HMG Lt, 2x Daturazi chain rifle, Dr Worm, 2xIkadron, Red Fury Xeodron, Kerr Nau, MSR Maakrep sniper and a 10th model I can't even remember :S