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Smoke, MSV2, Discover and Impersonation

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Gero, Aug 15, 2018.

  1. Gero

    Gero Well-Known Member

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    Ok guys a situation came up, I had a Bao Sniper on top of a rooftoop during deployment, my opponent deployed a Fiday in Impersonation next to him.

    So taking into consideration what I could do to save the Bao, I thought, If I cover both models in smoke the Bao Can Discover through it due to MSV2, but the hassassin would only get ARO's due to ZOC activation and movement.

    Considering Discover is not an attack but rather a movement skill, would the Fiday be able to shoot back the Bao if both are under smoke and said Bao Declares Discover+Idle?
     
  2. Shinen

    Shinen Well-Known Member

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    The Fiday cant Shoot back because discover is not an Attack, its a short movement Skill. You can even Discover + Discover for extra measures ;)
     
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  3. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
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    Discover is a sort movement skill. As...

    Any trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into or out of a Zero Visibility Zone, or whose LoF traverses a Zero Visibility Zone, may respond to the attacker even without LoF, provided the trooper is facing the attacker.

    ...the fiday is not allowed to declare an ARO as he does not have LoS.

    YOu could even declare Discover twice, havin twice the chance to reduce the IMP state.
     
  4. Ben Kenobi

    Ben Kenobi Well-Known Member

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    It's new to me, that you can discover twice if you don't move. Isn't there anything, like the only one try to discover a unit per turn?
     
  5. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    Can you tho? Aren't you disallowed to make a discover roll againt an enemy that you failed to disocver in that very turn? Also, would discover + discover action against the same trooper in IMP-1 might have led to stripping him from both IMP states if those rolls were to be successful?
     
  6. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As to Qs:
    1. Both Discover declarations are simultaneous with no internal order. Additionally the ban on several Discover on same marker is for declaring on the same target again after failing a roll and both Discovers are already declared at that point.
    2. There is already a clarification on how this works regarding Co-ordinated orders and Discover. All Discover rolls are made against IMP-1 and all will trigger IMP-1 cancellation clause which states essentially "go to IMP-2". So the Fiday would go to IMP-2 which is one of the reasons why IMP is such a horrendously powerful skill.
     
  7. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
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    You are allowed to declare two short movement skills.

    A trooper that fails a WIP Roll to Discover a Marker cannot attempt to Discover the same Marker until the next Player Turn. The trooper may still attempt to Discover a different Marker that Player Turn, and its player may still attempt to Discover the first Marker using a different trooper.

    I guess this is where the confusion comes from: if you fail a Discover, you cannot discover that unit again. Meaning that you need to pass BOTH discover rolls. So probably not the best idea against IMPs, but ceratinly against Camo.

    Impersonation State only goes down by one...you still need at least two orders to strip both levels.
     
  8. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    You haven't failed anything at the time of declaration, and resolution all happens at the same time, so discover + discover is valid. But, you can only take IMP-1 to IMP-2 even if you succeed with both rolls (as neither were attempting to discover the IMP-2 marker).
     
  9. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    Would that also mean that if I declare discover +discover and get one sucess and one fail I would trigger IMP-1 cancellation due to sucess but I would also make myself unable to discover IMP-2 since I failed a discover roll on that model already?

    To piggyback on that topic and ask question that is just vaguely related to the thread - If i want to Discover +bs attack special manuaver and AROing marker decides to delay after discovery declaration does it get to shot me back when I reveal BS attack as my second short skill?
     
  10. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
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    Q1: exactly

    Q2: discover & shoot
    1. The Active Player declares Discover against an enemy as the first Short Skill of his Order.
    2. His opponent declares AROs normally. If the target declares an ARO that would reveal it, then the Active Player may declare BS Attack as the second Short Skill of his Order, ignoring the now redundant Discover Roll.
    3. If the target did not reveal itself, then the Active Player may still declare a BS Attack. However, he must make his Discover Roll, and only if it is successful may he roll his BS Attack. If the Active Player fails that Discover Roll, the declared BS Attack is canceled and null.
    In the case of Smoke, there is no legit ARO until the BS Attack happens...so you would have to pass your WIP roll and only then the opponent is allowed to ARO. This messes up the "all at once" idea a bit though.
     
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  11. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The new IMP-2 marker is a different marker. The rules text prevents you from declaring Discover against the same marker. You can Discover the new marker just fine with no regard to how much you failed against the IMP-1 marker.
    Declaring Discover cancels your Marker state, so the only marker that can delay against a Discover declaration is a Chasseur if you're within ZoC. Yes, if you declare BS Attack against the Chasseur as your second Short Skill, the Chasseur will be able to shoot you back through the smoke.
     
  12. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    What about this sentence then:
    - If an enemy fails his Discover Roll, that enemy cannot attempt to Discover the same impersonator until the next (Active or Reactive) Turn.
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Impersonation-1

    Is a model that switches from Imp-1 to Imp-2 a different impersonator? What is the definition of an impersonator?
     
  13. Sergej Faehrlich

    Sergej Faehrlich Well-Known Member
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    the box and the sentences below solve that:

    IMPORTANT!

    Enemies perceive an impersonator in the Impersonation-1 or Impersonation-2 state (IMP-1 or IMP-2 Marker) as an ally.

    It's the same impersonator.
     
  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    That's listed under Effects. Effects are cancelled by Cancellation clauses.
     
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  15. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    I understand that the state is cancelled, but is the model represented by the marker state still the same impersonator?

    - The impersonator is Discovered. In that case, the impersonator enters the Impersonation-2 state. To represent this, replace the Impersonation-1 Marker with an Impersonation-2 Marker (IMP-2).

    Still the same impersonator imho.
    So for me the key question remains: What is the definition of an impersonator?
     
  16. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    The fiday player can't shoot you back, but only because in your case the miniature is in zone of control of the Bao, so he gets his right to make ARO, wich one can be only face because the absents of LoS.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Does the Fiday still have 360 vision during the order after it was Discovered and lost IMP-2? In other words, what makes you think that this effect persists when all the other effects of Impersonation state goes away when the state ends?
    The effect that's persistent for the Discovering model can be found in the Discover rule and that one talks about Marker, not impersonator
     
  18. zapp

    zapp Well-Known Member

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    I guess this is because Impersonation has two states (and is the only skill to do so imho?).

    It would be easier if the sentence would be like this:
    - If an enemy fails his Discover Roll, that enemy cannot attempt to Discover the same impersonaton-1 marker until the next (Active or Reactive) Turn.

    I would love be wrong with this but I'm still not convinced your interpretation would withstand a discussion on the gametable with an IA or Haqq opponent.
     
  19. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I don't suggest Maghriba-sock solutions in other than jest, but an opponent who takes that interpretation to such a criminally underpriced skill and resulting stupidly effective models probably deserves being joked about in such a way.

    Personal opinions aside, however, your interpretion of a persistent effect in spite of cancellation of state that causes it would also cause problems with re-cammoed troopers since the ditto line in those states references the trooper more formally.
    It would also cause the interaction where a Discover is declared and then subsequently failed due to the marker state trooper revealing to also need reviewing.
     
  20. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    The impersonation skill is related to two status but these status are still separated/independant from each other (and not limited to the impersonation skill as the impersonation-2 status can be reached with cybermask).

    If you "double discover" and fail one and pass one, then the part of "impersonation-1" cannot apply as the impersonation-1 status doesn't exist anymore and the same part in impersonation-2 cannot apply as it wasn't active when the discover was rolled