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Smoke - Going downward ?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Arkhos94, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Is it your personnal opinion or Corvus official rulling ?
     
  2. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    Please please please can we get this in an upcoming FAQ and the wiki, CB?

    No smoke down, it's geometrically impossible.
     
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  3. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Blast focus is the black dot in the centre of the blast template and at the end of the cone on the teardrop templates, it is nothing else and it is used to determine nothing else except the LoF of the template attack, I am not sure if and why this needs to go to the FAQ.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Because almost literally everyone tries to stick smoke on knife-edge corners to be clever with smoke cover.
     
  5. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    This is less about the blast focus and more about that depending on the way you read it, there are ways to argue that LoF could be traced downwards and the blast focus is a big part of that. But the real questions in this thread is:
    • Is there any way to throw a grenade in the border of a rooftop so the LoF can be traced downwards?
     
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  6. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    Because this rulebook graphic is significantly wrong if the blast focus is a mathematical point:
    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/images/f/fa/Itw1.jpg
     
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  7. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    How is that wrong? and why you chose this picture instead of this one?
    [​IMG]
    Also
    Now the problem is smoke says Infinite height and not extending both ways, I cannot remember if the assumption is smoke and other targetless things are supposed to land on the top flat surface they aimed from so they will extend upwards only and not multi-directional.
     
  8. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    If the smoke is only intended to extend upwards then it solves this thread's question. Ty for the answer.
    But an extra follow up one. Does this works the same with other targetless or speculative? Could you throw it in the border of a rooftop to hit a model in the base of the building (and inside the AoE of course)?
     
  9. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    @psychoticstorm : on the picture you show, the blast focus is represented as a circle not a dot (roughly 4mm diameter on a plastic template).

    With a blast focus this big on a smoke template, I can easily place it so I can trace LoF downward
     
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  10. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    With LoF being drawn from the centre of it. If it were being drawn from the whole circle the lines would be further apart.

    That's wrong, period.
     
  11. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed.

    @Arkhos94 , can we get this added to the unanswered question thread?

    @ijw , do you have the ability to get this question added to the upcoming July FAQ? If so, would you please add it? If not, who does have 'voting rights' for what questions get added to the FAQ?



    What, are you saying it is now impossible to place a BSG template such that it can hit a model on the same level as the shooting trooper AND such that it catches a trooper standing on a level above the shooting trooper?
     
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  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    The template mechanics are ok, he is talking about the blast focus. In that image is represented by a huge black point (I guess to make it easy to see), also in other pictures the center of that dot doesn't coincide with the blast focus (the center of the big black point would need to coincide with the narrow end of the teardrop template).

    This would be great. We have an answer but it needs a further confirmation:
    The smoke for the "infinite heigh" part is intended to go only upwards.
    The part to confirm is if any other circular template that may be placed in borders thanks to targetless or speculative fire (basically other grenades/GL) also works like that. If this is not confirmed in the next few days then i'm in for adding it to the unanswered thread.
     
  13. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    To sum it up (please correct me if necessary) :

    What does infinite height means regarding to smoke :
    1) infinite height in both direction (upward and downward)
    2) infinite height, but upward only

    What is the nature of the blast focus of a smoke template (or any other targetless item):
    1) A point at the center of the template with no dimension (including no height)
    2) A circle (as represented in teardrop template picture, size of the circle needs to be written)

    If the blast focus is a point, can he be placed at the border of a roof/wall so LoF can be traced downward from the blast focus ?
    1) No, you need to see at least a 3mm square of roof to target your smoke. Blast focus will be in the middle of this square so you can't trace LoF downward
    2) Yes, nothing forbids you to place your blast focus on the border of a wall/roof

    If the blast focus is a circle, can he be placed at the border of a roof/wall so LoF can be traced downward from the blast focus ?
    1) Yes. You can place it on the border and LoF can be traced to any point of the blast focus so you can trace LoF downward
    2) No. You can place it on the border but LoF can be traced to only to the center of the blast focus so you can't trace LoF downward

    Same question can be applied to any explosion template thrown using speculative fire




    That means defining "infinite something" as something only "half-infinite", that's something that doesn't compute with me.

    If you are falling into a hole of infinite height (see loki in thor 3), you will fall forever.If something is infinite, speaking of height or depth is the same because there is no botom or top.
     
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  14. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    The template is placed with the narrow end touching the leading edge of the Silhouette, not placed slightly in front of it like the diagram.
     
  15. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Let me propose some changes as the blast focus is being confirmed as a volumeness point and some questions are quite nested:
    What does infinite height means regarding to smoke :
    1) infinite height in both direction (upward and downward)
    2) infinite height, but upward only

    What is the nature of the blast focus of a circular impact template:
    1) A point at the center of the template with no dimension (including no height)
    2) A point in the targeted surface, which correspond with the center of the template placed; the blast focus have no dimension (including no height)
    3) A point in a point infinitesimally above of the targeted surface, which correspond with the center of the template; the blast focus have no dimension (including no height)

    Are the played allowed to select the target 3x3mm zone just right next to a border?
    1)No, the targeted point must be the center of that 3x3mm zone, if you choose a point too close to the border that attack would be illegal and cancelled. Hence, there is no way to place the 3x3mm zone perfectly just in next to a border without allowing perfect intent (Perfect intent is not supported by the rules confirmed by ijw in this same thread)
    2) Yes, you can place the 3x3mm zone around the targeted point as you wish. Hence, you are allowed to place that 3x3mm zone just in the border.

    The blast focus is a point, can it be placed at the border of a roof/wall?
    1) No, because you cannot place the 3x3mm zone just in the border (see question above).
    2) No, you need to see at least a 3mm square of roof. Blast focus will be in the middle of this square.
    3) Yes, nothing forbids you to place your blast focus on the border of a wall/roof.
    4) Yes, you can place it on the border of a wall/roof but you will need to use speculative fire to being allowed place the blast focus off-centered.

    If the blast focus can be placed just in the border of a roof/wall (see question above), can LoF be traced downwards from that point?
    1) No, you can't place the blast focus in a border, see above.
    2) No, even when placed in the border the LoF is only supossed to be unpwards, never downwards.
    3) No, even when placed in a border you cannot trace LoF downwards for other reasons (in this case is true, please add reasons).
    4) Yes, a point just in a corner would allow you to trace LoF downwards.
     
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  16. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I'm still not convice by "the blast focus is a point" when all the picture of the teardrop template present the blast focus as being a circle. Am I the only one ? (if yes I will just go with the flow and don't mention it)
     
  17. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    That seems settled to me, but it's fair. Let's wait a bit to see if there is still dobuts about this point. In that case we can add that one and modify the other to include that possibility.
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    The Blast Focus for a teardrop and a circular template are NOT the same.

    The Blast Focus of the teardrop template is the narrow end.

    "Place the narrow end of the Teardrop Template (Blast Focus) contacting the edge of the main target's base, following the Line of Fire (see diagram).

    As the diagram shows, the narrow end of the Template (Blast Focus) must be in contact with the edge that is closest to the attacker, so that the main target is unequivocally affected by the Template."

    There's absofuckinglutely no point trying to draw comparisons or conclusions from one to the other.

    We KNOW from discussion on the previous forum that for DTWs you can place the template like such:
    [​IMG]

    The narrow end (Blast Focus) of the template is contacting the edge of the attacker's base.
     
  19. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    I talked about the blast focus of the circular templates in the questions, no need to add more variables than necessary
    However the rules about the Blast Focus in the DTW seems to be applied quite generously, if we take the blast focus as a mathematical point just at the narrow end of the DT. Then the correct placement would be one that when a line is traced from the center of the attacking model to the blast focus, that line would divide the teardrop template exactly in the middle (in your image and the graphic 2 of the rulebook would be bad placed)

    However that would make impossible to aim in some scenarios like the graphic 4 and 5 of the rulebook. So taking these as part of the rules, in the DTW the blast focus is applied to not only that point but also to all the semicircle at the narrow end.

    So yes, in the teardrop templates the blast focus seem to be quite different to the circular template ones.
     
  20. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    I use the teardrop template as a reference for the circular template because :
    1) blast focus is not clearly define in the RAW
    2) there are no picture of the circular template being used (so no picture of a circular template with the blast focus visible)

    We don't agree on 1) but I'm pretty sure I didn't miss any picture of the circular template