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Smoke - Going downward ?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Arkhos94, Jun 27, 2019.

  1. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Ah, I see the error in communication.

    Neither the Blast Focus nor the Prone marker can be at 1+1/inf, 1+1/inf: that position is in free space on nothing. They both only occupy 1+1/inf, 1. This puts them on the roof, on the edge.

    Everything between 0,0 and 1,1 is occupied by the building.

    All that's needed is for you to draw an line from the Blast Focus downwards. You can do this from the position immediately superjacent to the edge of the roof.

    And I agree it's unnecessary to chase such precision for the prone marker. I'm just using it to point out that 1+1/inf, 1 is 'on' a horizontal surface if the horizontal surface extents from 1,0 to 1,1.
     
    #21 inane.imp, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No. I'm pointing out that 1+inf,1 is on the corner, a position that does not fully support the base and as such is neither capable of fully supporting a basr nor flat. You have to be at least as much away from the edge as you are away from the top of the surface, but probably more. Add into your calculations that a perfect edge does not exist...
     
  3. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Basically as the horizontal surface has to be 100% in contact with the 3x3mm blast point, you cannot draw LoF to anything under it (you are not allowed to peak/show that 3x3mm blast point out of the roof)
     
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  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    I'm not suggesting that you peak it out off the roof.

    @Mahtamori you're arguing that position 1,1 (is the absolute corner) is not part of the horizontal surface? Because it's a corner.

    The closest that something can approach the edge is therefore 1+1/inf, 1-1/inf. IE the position on the roof immediately prior to the edge?

    Remember that 1,1 is building and 1,1+1/inf is free space.

    If so, so is the Prone trooper able to actually touch the edge but the Blast Marker can't be placed there? Either 1,1 is part of the roof and can be used to support the Prone marker or its not and therefore can't.

    My interpretation is the 1,1 is both part of the horizontal surface and part of the vertical surface. Thus it can support a Trooper on the roof or a trooper Climbing.
     
  5. Ayadan

    Ayadan Knight of the TAG Order

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    Only the center, yes. But since every surrounding points of this point are at the same level (by the definition of horizontal surface), they are creating total cover which prevents the template to go downward.
     
  6. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I understand you.

    If I put the center of my template on a corner of a roof, the center will be on the roof (horizontal surface) but rougly three quarters of the template will be above the air. There, no total cover prevent it from going downward (unless you count the plastic template itself as total cover)

    Or are you considering only the exact center of the template and not the 3mmx3mm target (a point) as the place I must trace my LoF too ?

    If yes, what RAW do you use ? Because I'm pretty sure the rules doesn't define if the center (AKA Blast Focus) is a pinsized point or the 3mmx3mm target
     
    #26 Arkhos94, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  7. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Ok, I think i'm starting to get @inane.imp point. You are saying that if the blast point would have any volumen at all (not matter how small) AND would be able to be placed just touching the border, then you could theorically trace LoF to points under that...
    It's a good abstraction, but without allowing perfect intent that's just not going to happen, and it also doesn't seem like the intended functionallity (smoke always going upwards, newer downwards).
     
  8. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    And there's the rub. From what area do you measure LoF? Center point or the 3mm circle in the middle of the template?
     
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  9. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Good rub indeed. We have been supossing you can trace LoF from any point of these 3x3 mm, but if you can only trace LoF to the center point then there is no way to trace LoF downwards even when placed with perfect intent in the edge of a roof. How is this supposed to work?
     
    Arkhos94 likes this.
  10. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    Assuming the blast focus must be supported underneath by something, mathematically, even if the blast focus isn't on a 3mmx3mm space, there is no line where smoke could possibly go downward. Think about the angle created between two vectors on the same line in a 2D plane -- it's always 0 degrees and identical to the plane, except when one of the vectors is specified by two points on top of each other (the blast focus directly on top of the edge of a building) in which case the vector, and by extension the angle, is undefined. Even with the hardest form of intent, this is not possible because it is mathematically unfeasible.

    The only time an angle could go over the edge of the building would be if the blast focus was higher than the plane of the surface, and I don't believe the rules allow free flying blast focuses.
     
    #30 meikyoushisui, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
    Diphoration likes this.
  11. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Ok, let me show you my mad skills with the Paint!
    Black would be the surface, Red the blast focus (3x3mm), Blue the LoF.

    [​IMG]
    • Case A) If we assume the slightest volume in the blast focus, pefect intent to place it in the border and we trace the LoF as it would be a S. Then it would be able to Smoke models in the base of the building. I don't know if all these criterion could be met.
    • Case B) If we assume no volumen, then the LoF would need to follow the surface.
    • In either case A or B if it has to be meassured for the center of the blast focus (red) then it would behave like case B.
    As the case A require a few assumptions to being able to trace LoF to the base and the Smoke going downwards doesn't seem like intended, it's probably safe to assume that you can't throw smoke in a rooftop and smoke models in the base of it.
     
    ChoTimberwolf likes this.
  12. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    A picture is worth a lot of word so here it is (using MAS smoke marker as blast focus :

    IMG_4294.JPG

    Using this as blast focus, it's insanely easy to have LoF going downward

    If I have to go to the center of the marker, with this thickness, it still doable

    If the thickness is cardboard level of thickness it is also doable as long as LoF as to go to the marker but became undoable if you need a LoF to the center of the marker
     
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  13. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    There's no definition of the Blast Focus anywhere. I believe @ijw has previously said it's supposed to be the small circle on the original templates, but that's never been answered officially. Your guess is as good as mine whether it has height, but I've always played it like @Ogid's case B above.
     
  14. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    That marker is not representative of a blast focus. A Blast Focus is the point at the very center of the template, and the template is only representative of the AoE, not the thickness -- a blast template is a two dimensional object, that for obvious reasons we represent with a 3D one (This is evidenced by the fact that CB has a set of partnered retailers who make templates with different thicknesses, while CB's templates are made of cardboard -- if the thickness mattered/matters it would/should be specified in the rules). In this case, the "true" blast focus is the center of your marker, at the point where it touches the building. And if you measure from there, you'll get a straight line.

    We should not confuse the blast focus with the marker that people often use to represent it.

    @BLOODGOD The diagrams in the Template Weapons and Equipment rule entry all depict the blast focus as a single point, so I would second that @Ogid's second interpretation is correct.
     
    #34 meikyoushisui, Jun 27, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2019
  15. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    I'm not sure what rules you're looking at, but all the pictures in the template rules show a much-larger-than-a-mathematical-point circle that presumably represents the blast focus. I agree that a template is a 2D object that is then rotated to create a 3D solid in game space, but that would make the blast focus a small sphere (which in the case of a circular impact template would get you a hemisphere on the targeted surface).
     
  16. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    I don't think that's how it works - if a normal circular template had a blast focus that was a sphere, then a smoke template would have a blast focus that is an infinitely tall line (since the area of effect is a cylinder rather than a sphere). And despite the fact that I would much prefer this interpretation, it has been repeatedly stated that for figuring out how smoke flows around 3d objects such as building walls you need to draw all lines from the initial point of impact, not an imaginary vertical line extending upwards from that point.
     
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  17. BLOODGOD

    BLOODGOD Vampire Hunter

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    It would make it an infinitely tall 3mm cylinder, right? I would prefer to draw all lines from the [mathematical point] center of the template, but
    belies that unless all those pictures of blast foci on templates are wrong and the blast focus is a mathematical point. But that's definitely not what Graphic 7 shows in the template rules.

    CB: you need to define the blast focus, including the size, and be consistent about it.
     
  18. meikyoushisui

    meikyoushisui Competitor for Most Ignored User

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    I can't understand what you mean by this. The point has to be large enough that you can see it in a Diagram, and Graphic 7 shows that in the case of an impact template, the blast focus can be any discrete point from which LoF can be drawn from the winner of the f2f roll to the loser, and the impact template then follows the line created by the line drawn from the shooter to the shootee.
     
  19. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Pretty sure it's a 3x3x3mm volume, or rather a 3mm diameter cylinder 3mm tall, as LOF requires a 3x3mm target.
     
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  20. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
    Warcor

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    I don’t think the 3x3mm has anything to so with the size of the target, it’s just an amount you need to be able to see to be considered LoF. Not necessarily the impact.

    If you shoot someone with a boarding shotgun, can’t you place the target at any point of the model you can see? Or only in the middle of a 3mm you can see? Does this mean you can’t shoot at the top of a silhouette, but basically shoot at 1.5mm down from the top of the silhouette?
     
    meikyoushisui likes this.