I agreed with you right up until this very thread. I suggest reading the LoF rules and try to find out exactly what LoF means. I only changed my mind once i realized/believed the rules make a distinction(very badly of course) between "LoF angle" and "drawing LoF". The way i see it is SS increases your "LoF angle", not allow you to "draw LoF" in situations you couldn't otherwise. So yes, I understand it differently now. Both a CC Attack from the rear and one from the rear through Smoke trigger SS. I see SS as increasing your "LoF angle" from 180° to 360° for both CC Attacks. But as I've said, having a 360° "LoF angle" doesn't automatically allow you to "draw LoF" to your target. At this point I can declare a BS Attack against the CC Attacker not in Smoke because I meet all the requirements for a BS Attack. One of which is to be able to "draw LoF". I can "draw LoF" before the model reaches base to base contact. However, when the CC Attack is all happening through Smoke there are rules preventing a BS Attack ARO by not allowing us to "draw LoF" and thus meet the requirements. From the Zero Visibility Zone rules: Troopers cannot draw LoF through a Zero Visibility Zone. So if I can't draw LoF through it I can't declare a BS Attack. Inside a Zero Visibility Zone, troopers can only declare Skills that do not require LoF or that require them to be in base to base contact with their target. Again it states I can't declare skills that require LoF. So a BS Attack is not allowed. Any trooper who is the target of a BS Attack into or out of a Zero Visibility Zone, or whose LoF traverses a Zero Visibility Zone, may respond to the attacker even without LoF, provided the trooper is facing the attacker. This rules specifically calls out being the target of a BS Attack, we are a target of a CC Attack, so it's irrelevant. All this means the only point I can "draw LoF" is while in base to base contact but that point excludes a BS Attack as an ARO. My conclusion is at no point can I "draw LoF" to the CC Attacker through Smoke so at no point can I legally declare a BS Attack ARO. Something to note... When the rules reference LoF as a requirement i'm pretty certain now they are only referring to being able to "draw LoF". Unfortunately the rules take too many liberties with their wording. Seriously, when would the rules ever need to reference a troopers "LoF angle" as a requirement? That is a requirement to be able to "draw LoF". I think it's up to the players to find the intent behind the rule and in this case i really do believe the intent of SS is just to increase the "LoF angle" of your trooper. I'd really appreciate @ijw thoughts on this. If he sees it differently or the same I'd like to know.
You also tend to want people to ignore the part in Sixth Sense where it says you can respond ignoring LoF. But it's there.
I think what might be the underlying question is "why does Dodge get to ignore the LOF requirements and BS Attack does not"?
As far as I am aware Throwing a Smoke Grenade is a full blown BS Attack for all purposes. Can't be used when Stunned, can't be combined with other Attack Skills in one Order etc. However Smoke Ammunition can neither target nor attack troops as per it's traits, description text and examples. A trooper may be affected by the Smoke template, but will never be target of an Attack because of it. What still works is granting a Dodge ARO for being touched by a template. Sixth Sense doesn't interact with Smoke Grenades and you can't shoot back at someone chugging a Smoke at you from behind. Don't forget that Total Cover rules still exist. You can't shoot back through a wall at someone using Spec fire to lob a Grenade over a building at you. You're not allowed to declare BS Attacks to begin with against Total Cover, Sixth Sense or not.
We're still talking about moving into base contact within smoke. LoF will be granted by base contact.
That's what I thought at first but i don't think so. ZVZ, bold is my emphasis: Troopers cannot draw LoF through a Zero Visibility Zone. Inside a Zero Visibility Zone, troopers can only declare Skills that do not require LoF or that require them to be in base to base contact with their target. Dodge is clear that LoF is required. ZVZ lists Dodge and BS Attack AROs only in response to a BS Attack. The attackers CC Attack is legal because it only requires base to base contact. Dodge unfortunately requires LoF.
From the Line of Fire rules, and already quoted: LoF of Figures in CC Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with.
I can't argue that being in base to base allows us to draw LoF. But that doesn't override ZVZ. ZVZ says we can't draw LoF. Even if those rules are muddy the next bullet is clear. We can't even declare skills that require LoF. So whether or not we can draw LoF is actually irrelevant.
Even to attackers outside the CC? Or is that an errata that is phrased like a clarification in the FAQ?
As far as I'm aware, we're still discussing moving into base contact with a Sixth Sense trooper within smoke, and then declaring a CC Attack against them.
Sixth Sense means the Trooper is always able to delay after an Attack CC, BS or otherwise is declared against him. After he meets the criteria to shoot back and is able to ignore the LOF requirement. This should circumvent Zero Visibility Zones, Smoke and wrong facing all in the same way. The rule interactions don't seem to differ for BS Attacks or CC either. The noteworthy difference for a Dodge ARO is that it is possible to declare without LOF at a -3 (that 6th sense allows you to ignore) when hit a template. You mean when one member of a Link moves into BtB and declares CC Attack? If that is what you meant: According to the wording of "respond to Attacks" for Sixth Sense you shouldn't be a able to ARO against another Link Member behind you/in Smoke who didn't declare an Attack this Order.
How does any of that override the Zero Vis rules? Sixth Sense interpretations and whether or not you gain LoF is irrelevant. To use a Dodge or BS Attack ARO you must first declare them. Which you can't do because you're not allowed to declare skills that require LoF in response to a CC Attack while in a ZVZ.. I don't see how this is a debate any longer.
Ah I see your problem. You're trying to put it in a time perspective, which as a human makes sense. You assume the Move into BtB, gaining LOF from being Engaged and CC Attack happen AFTER the opportunity to shoot. However in Infinity Orders are simultaneous. So if you gain LOF at some point, you trigger Sixth Sense for the entire Order and are allowed to use this part of Sixth Sense at any part of your ARO: Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy inside his Zone of Control, even without LoF to the attacker and regardless the facing of the user. Sixth Sense then "retroactively" lets you ignore LoF and facing for your ARO. This interacts nicely with the next part of Sixth Sense that allows you to delay ARO in ZOC, otherwise the first part would be hard to use. So you get to react to a CC attack with BS Attacks against any point of the Attacker's Movement path as if you were facing him and as if there was no Smoke. You still aren't facing the trooper and the Smoke is still there. And BS Attacks still require LOF. Sixth Sense simply temporarily disables LOF and Facing as requirements for that one ARO it triggered for. So for that ARO you get to ignore that a BS Attack would normally require correct facing or LOF and it can be declared without it. Other requirements to declare a BS Attack still apply. Still can't shoot through Total Cover or at targets that are out of range. There is also the extra requirement that the ARO has to be a FTF roll against the Attack so strictly speaking you can't chugg a Normal Roll Smoke Grenade next to you, use the ARO to place a DTW on someone shooting you with a Rifle and you would not be able to shoot back at someone who hit you with a DTW either. You technically have to pick an ARO that responds to the Attack with a FTF roll.
You're reading an awful lot into that one bullet point for sixth Sense. It simply allows you to respond with a face to face roll. I would say "respond with a FtF roll" is akin to "declare a skill that produces a FtF roll". The next part of that line, "even without LoF to the attacker and regardless the facing of the user." isn't clear. But it's a massive leap for "even without LoF" to suddenly become, declare a skill and ignore how it functions within the rest of the Infinity rules. Look at that line under SSL1 "directed at him by an enemy inside his Zone of Control, even without LoF to the attacker and regardless the facing of the user" Now look at it under SSL2: "directed at him by an enemy outside his LoF and regardless the facing of the user" The wording is different. I find it extremely unlikely the intent is to allow shooting through walls. It's far more likely the intent is to extend the SS troopers LoF angle from 180° to 360°... nothing more. You're arguing that line gives you LoF no matter the circumstances. And if that is the case, SS giving you LoF is a blank cheque. Your interpretation would literally allow you to shoot through walls. Lucky for us, our interpretations of that line doesn't matter for this case. Because even in the unlikely event you turn out to be correct and SS once activated gives you LoF under any and all circumstances... All SS does is let you meet the requirements to declare a BS Attack or Dodge ARO. It doesn't make the declaration legal. That is an extremely important distinction to make. Zero Visibility Zone Effects Troopers cannot draw LoF through a Zero Visibility Zone. Inside a Zero Visibility Zone, troopers can only declare Skills that do not require LoF BS ATTACK SHORT SKILL / ARO Attack. REQUIREMENTS The user must have LoF towards the target unless the BS Weapon, Special Skill or Equipment used states specifically that it does not require LoF. DODGE SHORT SKILL / ARO Movement. REQUIREMENTS The user must be able to draw LoF to the attacker. And if all that doesn't change your mind please tell me how your interpretation prevents me shooting through walls in response to Spec Fire? Both a building and ZVZ prevent you drawing LoF. Why does one get ignored and the other does not? Total Cover Effects Troopers cannot declare BS Attacks with weapons, Special Skills or pieces of Equipment that require LoF against a target in Total Cover.
Just to throw another wrench into the discussion, what about the "ruling" on the last forums that said you could actually respond with a template weapon? I think, at this point, we all agree that the rule itself is very poorly written and we just need to decide how to play it until an errata comes.
I'm still searching for the exact post I was referring to, but I've found this: http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/42223-sixth-sense-and-direct-template/#comment-797007 "The wording assumes you're being shot with a traditional BS attack weapon (rifle, etc)." Which came from the opposite end; being shot at with a DTW and being able to respond with a BS attack even though that doesn't result in a FtF roll. Note that this post was selected as correct, which can only be done by a CB employee. I'll edit if/when I find the post I'm looking for. EDIT: a little closer... http://infinitytheforums.com/forum/topic/50280-sixth-sense-level-2-clarification/#comment-956715 Actually, now that I think about it, that last one might be the one I was thinking about. If you take the consequence of the first answer, and apply it liberally you come to the second conclusion: you can respond to a BS attack in the back arc with a template if you have SS, as the requirement for it to be a FtF roll is, in effect, an error of some kind. Rationales vary, but it seems a popular one was that you are simply declaring a BS attack with whatever weapon you want. The game can't know it won't be a FtF roll until the resolution step, so that's fine (I guess). Perhaps IJW will chime in on this because I am almost certain it was one of his posts that I had in mind. Something to the effect of, "Just ignore the requirement that it needs to be a FtF roll."
