Also remembre what it NOT a FtF rolls. smoke trower will place smoke in case he pass his roll. you only got a chance leave the teamplate with dodge. But AFTER the smoke trown, we come to ANOTHER question. the enemy, who just trow smoke, with next order moves in BtB to a one of link members. Link member holds his ARO. The active model declares CC Attack. Can the link member declare BS Attack in respond, or he limited to CC/Dodge? Link member has Sixth Sences L2 (for a link) but has no MSV, the attacking enemy all the way was in smoke or behind it. What change if a smoke would be Eclipse smoke for example? (for a last week i heard this one question about dozens of times, so i realy want @ijw answer. I have my own rulling for this, but most players always have their own vision, & not always right one - so i want check if i do it right?)
I took the time to do some reading and this question has been debated a lot without a clear, definitive and official answer All is about the understanding of this (from SS lvl2) : Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy outside his LoF and regardless the facing of the user. CC attack qualify as an an attack so It should "activate" this bullet point (By the way, the fact that the Attack link in the wiki redirect to BS attack bring some confusion here). Smoke block LoF but this bullet point seems to allow to ignore that So I would say yes, you can answer a CC attack of a smoked enemy with a shot in the face if you've got SS lvl 2 To put it simply, SS lvl 2 allows you to ignore facing, smoke/white noise/Eclipse to generate ARO when you are the target of an attack
well - this is the one point of view, with wich i totaly disagreed. if i use BS Attack throught the Smoke - yes, it works. But in case Attacker come to BtB & declare CC Attack - it NOT the attack from outside Trooper with Sixth Sences LoS. So you cant use Sixth sences in this case to shoot & can only use CC/Dodge ARO cause you are already in Engaged state & Not see the Attacker while he moves to you. But you can ignore Surprise Attack if enemy use some... It is MY opinion how it works & WHY Fidays, Speculo & Kitsune have smokes. This question realy need clear answer in a FAQ or even rules change.
When the reactive trooper doesn't have sixth sence, I agree with you : Before the engaged status is reached, no BS attack ARO is possible because no LoF Once the engaged status is reached, BS attack is not allowed because of the engaged status Conclusion : No BS attack ARO allowed When the trooper has sixth sence, being the target of an attack allow you to ignore the LoF requirement which allow you to shoot before the engaged status is reached (it would be the same if you were attacked from your rear). For sixth sence to work as you want, rules would need to be rewrited. Right now sixth sense say this : Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to Attacks (and only Attacks) directed at him by an enemy outside his LoF and regardless the facing of the user.And for it to work like you want it would need to say this Allows the user to respond with a Face to Face Roll to BS Attacks (and only BS Attacks) directed at him by an enemy outside his LoF and regardless the facing of the user.
Yes : being in the engaged status doesn't grant you LoF on the other trooper (see here : http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Engaged), so a CC attack in a smoke come from outside your LoF (PS : CC attack doesn't have LoF reqirement)
Yes it does. Being Engaged stops you from drawing LoF beyond base contact. See http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Line_of_Fire_(LoF)#LoF_of_Figures_in_CC Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with. Figures engaged in CC cannot draw LoF to models, Markers or any other elements with which they are not in base contact.
When i read this, i understand it as « standard 180 lof arc » become a « 360 arc limited to base to base contact ». I don’t see how it cancel the smoke effect on LoF once engaged. But let’s say i agree. So being engaged give you LoF on everything Base to base with you. Then silent Cc weapon doesn’t work anymore as they need you to cc attack from outside LoF : Silent. If you use this weapon or piece of Equipment to make an Attack while outside the target's LoF, that target cannot react by Changing Facing or apply the Warning! rule unless he survives the Attack (that is, isn't in a Null state after the Attack is resolved). So CC attack outside of LoF is impossible so knife silent trait is useless. To me, it shows a problem in your explaination.
Silent only requires you to be out of LoF for BS Weapons. Silent CC Weapons give the target a standard ARO, but stop other troopers from reacting.
I think you're trying to do stuff with Silent that Silent doesn't do. First and foremost, it falls apart when you realize that CC Attack doesn't require LOF. Regardless of LOF interpretation, the target of the Knife attack would be able to respond with CC Attack. Second of all, I can't find anything in Sixth Sense that denies Silent. It will still work on the target's friends who will be denied some of their useful AROs by the Silent trait. Third, Silent denies Change Facing and Warning! specifically to the target, other skills not so much. But in CC the target would regardless have access to almost universally better responses. Silent just isn't as strong for CC Weapons as it could be for BS Weapons.
I'm confused about the answers to this question. Once the trooper declares the CC attack I thought the SSL2 trooper can ARO(BS attack) at any point during the order. So the enemy is essentially Attacking the moment he declares the first MOV skill. And from there SSL2 grants me LoF and negates the mod from Smoke. I'm not sure how being Engaged or LoF during CC attacks factors into this. I would argue those troopers have Smoke because it provides all the benefits Smoke normally provides. Sixth Sense troopers have SS for the same reasons. One of those reasons is because it provides some protection against Smoke.
I don't know. I could see a case being made for "Sixth sense gives you the opportunity to make a face to face roll when attacked from outside LoF. Engagement already allows a face to face roll and is within LoF so SS doesn't trigger." but I can also see a case for "You're considered to be attacking for the entirety of your activation and so I'd like my F2F roll to be a BS attack before you engage me even though I couldn't see you until you engaged me." I'm not sure which makes more sense. I can say that my meta has always played it the first way.
My personal opinion (but not strongly held) is that you wouldn't get to respond with a BS Attack, because the rules for reacting to an Attack through a Zero Visibility Zone are specific to the attacker using BS Attack.
I treat it that way because if you don't treat it as a poor man's 360 visor, it starts allowing people to shoot back at speculative fire shots through buildings and other weird things.
Here's my interpretation that eliminates that^ possibility: SSL2 allows me to respond with a FTF to Attacks "outside my LoF". The rule is not doing anything special to the LoF I can already draw. The wording essentially EXTENDS my "LoF angle" from 180 to 360 degrees. I doubt "outside my LoF" means I can "draw LoF" no matter what. So if my attacker lobs a grenade at me from behind total cover, I get to pretend/respond as if I'm facing the direction that attack came from. I can't now magically see them behind a building. From the LoF rules, "In Infinity, being able to draw LoF is a requisite for performing BS Attacks" Unfortunately the BS attack rules use the wording, "The user must have LoF towards the target" I have to assume the intent is to draw LoF. So when that grenade hits me, SSL2 allows me to respond with a FTF roll, such as BS Attack. But I must then try to draw LoF to perform the BS attack. Maybe Infinity just needs to make a better distinction between the arc where you're allowed to draw LoF from and the line itself? It seems to indicate "Lof angle" and "draw LoF" as two separate things but typically put them under one category/heading and uses other wording elsewhere.
I can see how this is problematic. SSL2 allows me to respond to Attacks through ZVZ's without the -MOD. That rule doesn't specify I can do anything special on it's own. And using the logic in my last post, I think I'm forced to agree with you. I gain a "LoF angle" to the CC Attack through Smoke but must still follow the normal ZVZ rules. And as it's not a BS Attack... I can't shoot. I don't get to create a FTF situation that isn't allowed. Which means I agree with you as well @Triumph
Slightly off topic, but how do you play Sixth Sense and engagement when no smoke is involved? I.E. A model with SS is engaged from its back arc.
I assume you mean CC Attacked as Engage is an ARO and Engaged is the state of being in base to base. If my SSL2 trooper is CC attacked from behind I turn and shoot them in the face. The CC Attack declaration activates SSL2 and my LoF angle is now 360 so I see the attack coming and get to respond accordingly.
I hope this will be covered in faq that is on the way. My personal interpretation is following. 1. Smoke/eclipse granades uses bs attack skill to be thrown. 2. Smoke/eclipse granades have targetless traye so they don't "attack" any target. 3. Smoke/eclipse granades are template weapons so they allow any unit under template to do Dodge. 4. As for 6 sense- since units are not under attack because of the targetless trait they cannot use bs attack to reply. As I say-so my interpretation not to be treated as Oracle.
The RAW says attack not BS Attack. While I now agree with your explaination regarding CC and how SS doesn't allow you to shoot in answer to a CC attack, I don't see why other non-BS attack (comm-attack, hacking attack) would'nt activite sixth sence. Example 1 : 1 An hospitalier knight in a 5 man FT is inside of a smoke. 2 The evil interventor, also inside of the smoke, move 0 cm (no total cover between them) 3 The hospitalier hold his ARO 4 The interventor declare the oblivion program 5 Being attacked, the SS activate, allowing the knight to shoot the interventor in the face (creating an opposed roll between BS attack and hacking) Same example could be made with the same hospitalier and a Ghazi using his jammer I don't read any difference in the rules between SS in a case of CC attack coming from a smoke and SS in a case of CC attack coming from the rear. So if it doesn't work for one, it shouldn't work for the other. Before your opponent reach base to base, you have a 180° LoF so you don't see him. Once he reach base to base, you have a 360° LoF limited to contact so you see him but the engaged status forbid BS attack. Do you understand things differently ?
