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Smoke and sixth sense

Discussion in 'Rules' started by kghamilton, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The problem isn't that it's going to be asked again so much as people not reading the answer when it's provided.
     
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  2. kghamilton

    kghamilton Member

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    Ok I'm back
    So to clarify, throwing smoke at a link team out of LoF, but so the link is covered by the template DOES NOT provoke a BS attack ARO? Only dodge at normal PH due to SSL1?
     
  3. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Not quite.

    It does not activate the part in Sixth Sense that allows you to respond to attacks regardless of facing.
    They can still Dodge at PH-3 due to being affected by a template weapon outside of LOF. Sixth Sense, however, does work partially and removes the negative MOD and makes this PH+0.
     
  4. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    aka 'dodge at normal PH'.
     
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  5. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Depends on how much you want to simplify it when smoke dodging and whether you think the simplification might cause problems :)
     
  6. SoMann

    SoMann Member

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    Why does this trigger? Don't you have to be the target of an attack to trigger ss1?
     
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  7. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Small point, a 4-5 trooper fireteam has SSL2.
    Wait, i thought SSL2 doesn't work in this situation. The BS attack declaration of Smoke isn't an attack.
    • When attacked with a template weapon from outside his LoF the user may ignore the -3 MOD to Dodge a template from outside his LoF.
    Bold is my emphasis.
     
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  8. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    As I have come to understand the rules, "attacked" in this case is informal description of what's happening. "Affected by" is how a more terminology conscious rules writer would write it.
    The line regarding responding to attacks regardless of facing specifically calls out the game terminology of "Attacks and only Attacks", the capital letter meaning it's a skill or label.
     
  9. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    I sincerely hope you're wrong.

    It's bad enough some skill effects can precede/override the requirements of it's very own skill. The effect of SSL1 to delay an ARO for example.

    So... Smoke doesn't trigger SSL2 because it's not an "Attack". But it does trigger an effect of SSL2 because the description doesn't really mean what it says and lives outside the requirements to activate that skill to begin with?

    MOTHER F*****!
     
  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    This actually brings me to a new question. How do levels of skills work in relation to their requirements? I can't take these kinds of questions for granted quite frankly.

    SSL2 includes all levels of the skill. Delaying an ARO is listed under SSL1, not SSL2. But the requirements for SSL1 and SSL2 are different.

    So can a SSL2 trooper only delay AROs to activations within ZoC?
     
  11. scott581

    scott581 Member

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    This question came up within my group just last week as well. That seems to be the correct interpretation.
     
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  12. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Each level's Requirements apply to that level's Effects.
     
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  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    If it helps, Sixth Sense Level 2 is not Sixth Sense Level 1 as well - it gives you access to Sixth Sense Level 1 in addition to itself.
     
  14. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Thanks,

    Any chance you can confirm or comment on the below please?
     
  15. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    The "Targetless" trait covers that.
     
  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yup. This is why you know @ijw 's just making stuff up. The rules themselves re obtuse and contradictory, but he's treating his band-aid solution like it has support in the text when it doesn't.
     
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  17. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I'd be much happier with answers like these:

    1. The rule functions as X. Here's the structure/steps to follow and the key wording/categories backing it up.

    Or

    2. Please accept X ruling as how it is intended to function. We know this isn't fully supported by the structure/wording and is open for interpretation. So don't stress yourself out over it.

    That way, if it's #2, I can stop trying to figure out how the rules actually work to apply them in other situations. Because right now, it's a nightmare.

    I really do not like having it implied the Smoke rules work just fine as is. With rules indicating that it functions Not as an Attack, not found under the Effects list or as a label of Smoke. But rather tucked away under some sub heading describing Smoke and Spec Fire. Maybe that's working as intended, I dunno. What I do know is, either way it's terrible.

    I'm not even sure how I'm supposed to interpret regular text/words anymore. Can descriptive text be used to support an intended rule function or not? If "When attacked" does not indicate the "Attack" label it seems clear to me that no descriptive text can ever be used as a supporting argument for anything. Which to be fair, is how it should be.

    How do I know when skill effects function outside the skill requirements?
     
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  18. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    No it doesn't, that just allows you to pick a spot on the ground. It doesn't stop the template affecting troopers and markers inside it.
     
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  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Good point. So the rules are written in an even more tortuous way.
     
  20. psychoticstorm

    psychoticstorm Aleph's rogue child
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    Personal attacks are not allowed.
     
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