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Smoke and sixth sense

Discussion in 'Rules' started by kghamilton, Jun 18, 2018.

  1. kghamilton

    kghamilton Member

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    Hello everyone
    Apologies as I'm sure this has been asked before so I'll keep it to the point

    Fiday standing behind a five man fireteam, every member is facing directly away from him. The Fiday is prone, in the open and inside the fireteams ZoC.

    The fiday idles
    Link team hold aro as per SSL2
    Fiday delcares he will throw smoke
    When the template is placed, it clips one member of the fireteam

    My question is what are the fireteams ARO options and why?

    My understanding from previous play is since a smoke grenade is an attack, any member touched by the template gets to react normally as per SSl2, even though I didn't target anyone with the grenade?

    The other thought is since I didn't technically target anyone, the fireteam can only declare change facing as their aro?

    Thanks in advance!
     
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  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The clipped model gets to react with Dodge (at -0 due to Sixth Sense) since they are affected by a template weapon (see template weapon rules). All models with the Fiday in their ZoC (including the clipped model) gets to react with Change Facing (or Reset) since the Fiday has used a skill that is not compatible with Stealth.

    Each ARO opportunity is evaluated individually. Any Fireteam member not with Fiday inside ZoC will not gain an ARO opportunity.

    As of the Sixth Sense thread you are referring to, I do not think the clipped model may respond with a BS Attack since Smoke ammo is not an attack. (Note that targeting doesn't matter, being touched by a template weapon means you are *a* target)
     
  3. kghamilton

    kghamilton Member

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    If the guy can react with a dodge, surely they can also shoot no? I guess this is the part I'm most interested in. Were we to replace the smoke template with a regular grenade, then the opposing model would get the opportunity to react normally as per sixth sense, I.e shoot
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I would not count on it. Smoke Grenades are weapons and what allows them to Dodge without LOF in this situation is being affected by a template weapon ( http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment#Effects ). What allows a Sixth Sense model to attack regardless of facing is being attacked ( http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Sixth_Sense#SIXTH_SENSE_LEVEL_1 ) which does not mean "being affected by a weapon" as is intuitive. Smoke is explicitly not an attack ( http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Smoke_Special_Ammunition#Smoke_and_Special_Dodge , http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Special_Skills#Special_Skills_and_Equipment:_Labels ).
     
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  5. kghamilton

    kghamilton Member

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    Okay so my understanding is since smoke is not considered an attack, throwing it at a fireteam out of LoF does not provoke a BS attack? Only change facing or dodge if a model is touched by the template?
    :-)
     
  6. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    If smoke is not an attack you can't dodge either.
     
  7. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Dodge reactions in this situation are triggered by being affected by a template, not by being attacked. Plus it's specifically mentioned in the Smoke rules.
     
  8. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    It's actually not. It says that enemies who *do* declare Dodge have it become a normal roll, not that the template affecting them allows a Dodge. So you move a trooper with Smoke Grenades into LoF of an enemy, they can declare a Dodge because they can see you, and then when you throw smoke on top of them it's a normal roll. If you catch them with the AoE when they don't otherwise have the ability to declare a Dodge, they can't.

    If CB wanted this to be the case, they would have put it in their rules, no matter how much you wish it were true. They've gone against what you thought was true in the past (See: Shock ammo vs. NWI/Dogged and 2 wounds.)
     
  9. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    :popcorn:
     
  10. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Example of Impact Template weapons and Smoke
    In his Active Turn, a Shaolin Monk decides to lob a Smoke Grenade at a few Fusiliers in order to sneak up on them. The Shaolin declares a Special Dodge with his Smoke Grenade and places the Template on the table. A total of 3 Fusiliers are affected by the Template's Area of Effect.
    Two of them declare BS Attack as their ARO against the Shaolin's declaration. This means there are two Face to Face BS Rolls against the one PH Roll made by the Shaolin.
    The third Fusilier does not have LoF to the Shaolin but, being affected by the Area of Effect, he can react with a Dodge in ARO. He declares Dodge so that, if he passes his Roll, he can move outside the Template. In this situation, the Fusilier must make a Normal PH-3 Roll to Dodge.
     
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  11. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment

    Effects
    • Any trooper in base contact with a Template, or whose base or Silhouette Template is covered at least partially by a Template, is equally affected by the Template Weapon or Equipment.
    • Troopers affected by a Template Weapon or Equipment can declare Dodge as their second Short Skill or ARO, even if they do not have LoF to the attacker.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Welp, the examples contradict the text. That's not the first time that's happened. Maybe someday CB will have a coherent ruleset.
     
  13. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    What attacker? Apparently, it's not an attack.
     
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  14. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Clearly they don't have LOF to something that doesn't exist. Checks out.
     
  15. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    Where is the contradiction?
     
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  16. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    @Hecaton i think you should read again something, before calling for not-coherent-ruleset

    Smoke uses a Template

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Template_Weapons_and_Equipment

    Effects
    • Any trooper in base contact with a Template, or whose base or Silhouette Template is covered at least partially by a Template, is equally affected by the Template Weapon or Equipment.
    • Troopers affected by a Template Weapon or Equipment can declare Dodge as their second Short Skill or ARO, even if they do not have LoF to the attacker.
    Do you read anywhere that you need the Template Weapon or Equipment to be an attack, in order to Dodge? You just need to be under the template
     
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  17. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @tox You can emphasize different words or not, doesn't matter; those words are written with the assumption that there is an attacker. If there's no attack, there's no attacker, ergo they don't.

    @ijw As I just mentioned. The Fusilier dodges when there was no attack/attacker.
     
  18. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    So, whatever I show you, you read it as you want.
    Right.

    Sometimes I ask myself why the **** I still lose time on your questions...
     
  19. CabalTrainee

    CabalTrainee Well-Known Member

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    @tox He is right that that bullet point you quoted especially states that it needs no LoF to the attacker

    Can someone explain to me why it is not an attack? I use the skill BS Attack to actually throw the thing ( http://infinitythewiki.com/en/BS_Attack )
    If it wasn't an attack why am i allowed to use the trait "throwing weapon"? it only tells me to use PH for BS Attacks .

    Throwing Weapon. This weapon can make BS Attacks, but uses the PH Attribute in place of BS. When using this weapon, consider all rules and MODs that would affect the trooper's BS as affecting his PH Attribute instead.

    Last i checked BS Attacks were labeled as attacks. Am i missing a sentence in the smoke rules?
     
  20. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    CabalTrainee - it's buried in the Smoke and Speculative Fire section. But there are all kinds of problems if you treat Smoke as an Attack, for example not being able to place the template where it would affect any of your troopers, any HVTs or any Camo markers...
     
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