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Smoke and (MSV2)Discover - any AROs allowed?

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Daniel Darko, May 24, 2019.

  1. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
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    Hello fellow commanders,
    I've got two questions.

    Teucer is in a smoke template.

    First question:
    Teucer (MSV2) starts to discover various camo token. It is not an attack. Am I right assuming, they don't get AROs as long as they are out of ZoC?

    Second question:
    Teucer is right next to a Moderator (in ZoC).
    First short skill: Discover (at a legal target, let's say a mine somewhere in the distance)
    ARO Moderator: Only change facing possible.
    Second short skill: shoot at the Moderator.

    Looks like a exploit! :-/
    Is it legal, are there rules to prevent it or is it a number of unfortunate circumstances leading to this artefact of rule interaction?
     
  2. Commoner1

    Commoner1 Well-Known Member

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    @1) yes
    @2) yes

    Edit regarding question 2: The tactic is 100% legit if you take other skills than discover as your first skill into account like moving around a corner with the first skill and shooting with the second skill. IMHO it's one of the better applications of the smoke trick. Discover as your first skill might look a bit fishy but there is nothing wrong with the tactic in general.
     
    #2 Commoner1, May 24, 2019
    Last edited: May 24, 2019
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  3. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    He is performing a Move short order. He *does* generate an ARO, but only from enemies that can see him: MSV2 & MSV3 equipped, so the only Camos that can protest are Intruders.

    Yes. And if you don't want to fire yet, you can Discover + Discover *two different markers*, so the Moderator has declared Change Facing and will do nothing against Teucer. Next order, he can move/discover + Shoot the moderator if desired.
    Remember also that Teucer has a Nanopulser, and that Engage demands LoF, so he can fire the Nanopulser at the Moderator, who can only do Change Facing; it's the same mods for the Moderator, but you don't need to roll.
     
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  4. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    How is it an exploit when you could just as easily
    First skill: Move or Idle
    Second skill: Shoot at Moderator
    ?

    There’s lots of stuff in the ARO mechanism which looks like it give the reactive player an advantage but which the active player can take advantage of, and ends up being a trade off in order expenditure.

    Sixth Sense exists as a skill for a reason. :)
     
  5. Daniel Darko

    Daniel Darko Well-Known Member
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    You are right.

    At first sight I took it as an exploit, because the target was absolutely helpless. There was not even a theoretical way out. The target was stuck and changed facing until it eventually got shot. (It went prone due to the guts roll.) It just wasn't one of the better game experiences :-/

    @solkan, I still agree with you on second thought.
     
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  6. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    You do have an option, not necessarily a better option if your dice hate you:
    During the first order, waive your ARO and instead use Warning to turn around automatically. That sets you up to be able to shoot back (since now you’ll be facing the MSV2 trooper).

    There’s also a minor unresolved rules issue concerning GUTS movement. If you fail a GUTS check and don’t move, you might be able to choose your facing even though you haven’t moved.
    https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threads/guts-rule-discrepancy-spanish-v-english.26397/#post-229585
    Evidence weighs a little bit towards that you’re supposed to be able to, since that’s consistent with the simplified rules.

    So if you live the first hit, and aren’t ringed by attackers who can switch off shooting you in the back, you shouldn’t be helpless forever. You still get hit in the back, though.
     
  7. Hexa

    Hexa TAG pilot

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    Unfortunately being facing the attacker won't help, since the MSV troop will just move again next order to force a Change Facing before shooting.

    Yes, it seems like a horrible loophole in the rules. I came pretty close to quitting the game because of it and the walking into melee use of Change Facing Shenanigans (the latter of which I now consider acceptable because it makes melee an actually useful option). The MSV2+ forcing Change Facing through smoke doesn't come up very often though, because it tends to cost of lot of orders to set up. I've been playing since last edition and it's come up in something like five games.

    As for what you can do about it: Mines, Jammers and Crazy Koalas don't care about smoke and will still work if positioned ahead of time. I think they're your best option. And Sixth Sense troops such as links of four or more can declare their ARO after a nearby model's declared both skills, so will get to react properly.
     
    #7 Hexa, May 27, 2019
    Last edited: May 27, 2019
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  8. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Just remember that attacking give the target LoF to the attacker, even in smoke. So DO NOT shot a model within engage range if hr did not already spent his ARO...
     
  9. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Small correction in bold : "Just remember that BS attacking give the target LoF to the attacker, even in smoke. So DO NOT shot a model within engage range if hr did not already spent his ARO..." (CC attack is also an attack)
     
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  10. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Can you use any ARO in that situation? In the Zero Visibility Zone rules it says that you can only use BS attack and Dodge
     
  11. toadchild

    toadchild EI Aspect

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    If your opponent walks into base contact under cover of smoke, you can dodge or cc as usual. The cc engagement rules take priority over the zero viz zone rules.
     
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  12. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Yep, if they walk into CC with no Stealth (or if the model have sixth sense) the reactive model can declare any legal ARO they can declare engaged, no doubt there, I was refering to these 2 points:

    I always read that as that the only legal AROs were these 2 (again excluding other abilities like sixth sense), in that situation the reactive model couldn't declare engage even if the active model would be shooting literaly under his nose.
     
  13. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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  14. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Maybe I'm not being clear enough...

    This is what makes me doubt. These 2 implies that you can, when being BS attacked, declare any legal ARO as if you have LOS but the wiki say this:

    So, BS attacking someone in a zero visibility zone (while facing toward the attacker) let that model declare AROs as if it has LOS or it only let it declares BS attack and Dodge? Forget about CC, just the BS attack case.
     
  15. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Zero_Visibility_Zone
    upload_2019-5-30_10-33-20.png
     
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  16. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    RAW you can only BS attack and Dodge as ARO.

    Then why is dangerous to shoot a model within engage range? :thinking_face: Dodge doesn't let you reach base to base, you can get BS attacked from outside of engage range and Engage is an ilegal ARO in that situation.
     
  17. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Because ENGAGE is a ARO that let you both dodge the incoming hits and enter contact with the active enemy. http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Engage
    But requires LoF
    That you grants via BS Attack through smoke
     
  18. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    But that’s not what the rules say...

    Getting BS attacked in smoke doesn’t give you LoF to the attacker, it just let you ARO ignoring the LoF requisite but only if you use BS attack (with a -6) or Dodge. It also doesn’t say that you can use any ability that let you dodge, it states dodge (which is a common ability and it even links it). Nowhere in Engage, Dodge or Low Visibility Zones say that you can use Engage in place of Dodge, the closest thing is where it say that every dodge MOD is also applied to Engage, but that’s a different thing. And the FAQs and Examples don’t say you can use Engage there.

    So unless I’m missing something, RAW you can’t use it.
     
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  19. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Mmm...
    No, you are not missing anything.
    I always taken that an Engage could always be declared in stance of a Dodge (if close enough), but this case is actually more strict!
     
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  20. Ogid

    Ogid Well-Known Member

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    Good to know! The post I quoted was posted days without anyone complaining, I was starting to think that I missed some rule in a random page or hidden post that allow the use of Engage every time you can declare Dodge or something like that (because it’s true these 2 abilities are quite similar).