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Smoke and Engaged

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Ginrei, Jun 27, 2018.

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  1. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    An Active player and Reactive player are in base to base contact within Smoke. Do they have LoF to each other?

    I assume the answer is no.
     
  2. Robock

    Robock Well-Known Member

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    Does it matter ? I assume the answer is no.

    The requirement for CC Attack is only:

    REQUIREMENTS

    • The user must be in base to base contact with an enemy.

    Same for using doctor/engineer while inside a smoke. Or activating a mission objective covered in smoke.
     
  3. dlfleetw

    dlfleetw Well-Known Member
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    I believe a call to the local Fire Department is in order.
     
  4. Kazavon

    Kazavon Uxia McNeil's #1 Fan

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    Yeah. You have LoF to whatever you're in B2B with. The smoke just keeps you from drawing LoF before they touch.
     
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  5. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    And how do you come to that conclusion?

    I have LoF to an enemy 10" away if there are no obstacles and I can draw a line from my front 180 arc to them, Smoke prevents that. What's the difference if the player is in base to base? Base to base may change my arc of LoF but Smoke is still rather explicit about drawing LoF.
    • Troopers cannot draw LoF through a Zero Visibility Zone.
    Yes it matters. You can use CC Attacks and other skills only requiring base to base contact. But you can't use a Dodge as it requires LoF.
     
  6. Skjarr

    Skjarr EI Mouthpiece

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    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Line_of_Fire_(LoF)
    LoF of Figures in CC

    Figures engaged in CC can draw a 360˚ LoF, but only to whatever they are in base contact with.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Zero_Visibility_Zone
    • Inside a Zero Visibility Zone, troopers can only declare Skills that do not require LoFor that require them to be in base to base contact with their target.

    In fairness I can't find anything that explicitly states that B2B overrides a Zero-Vis zone but that is the accepted intention as far as I'm aware.
     
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  7. cazboab

    cazboab Member (phrasing)

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    Being in base to base contact with an enemy puts you in the engaged state, which changes your LoF to 360 degree base contact. You aren't drawing LoF through the smoke because when the bases touch there is no room for smoke in between.
     
  8. Nenyx

    Nenyx Well-Known Member

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    I think there might be something between ssl1/2 and engage+cc attack into a smoke. ssl allows to shoot back if attacked, so it should allow a BS ARO even if the attack is a melee one, provided the opponent effectively moved during this order. Tell me if i'm wrong.
     
  9. Skjarr

    Skjarr EI Mouthpiece

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    This might do it if you really want to prove it.

    Once you move into B2B with an enemy you are classed as Engaged.
    Troopers in the Engaged state are considered to be in Close Combat.

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Interacting_with_a_Close_Combat
    Any troop in base to base contact with an enemy engaged in Close Combat can only declare CC Attack, Dodge, or other skills usable in Close Combat.

    That states that Dodge is a valid skill in CC.
     
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  10. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. Engaged in CC allows you to draw 360˚ LoF to those in base to base. That isn't the same as giving you LoF.

    ZVZ rules explicitly state you can't draw LoF. Because Engaged describes CC as drawing LoF, I have to conclude Smoke prevents that.
    That's simply an assumption on your part.
     
  11. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    But that is only saying Dodge is a valid declaration. Valid in normal circumstances. Smoke/ZVZ changes the circumstances. Being able to declare Dodge in CC isn't the same as being a legal declaration.
     
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  12. tox

    tox SorriBarai
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    Just to be clear.
    You are implying that two models engaged in a ZVZ DO NOT have a LoF on eachother?
     
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  13. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. LoF isn't a requirement to make a CC attack but it is for Dodge. Maybe there's a reason for this?

    EDIT: In other words, I can Smoke you, then make a CC attack, and you can't Dodge. Seems useful and reasonable to me.
     
  14. macfergusson

    macfergusson Van Zant is my spirit animal.

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    Smoke, as a Zero Viz Zone, does not apply to skills that are declared in base to base contact.

    • Inside a Zero Visibility Zone, troopers can only declare Skills that do not require LoF or that require them to be in base to base contact with their target.
     
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  15. Skjarr

    Skjarr EI Mouthpiece

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    I think Ginrei's point is that the Dodge skill states it requires LoF and it does not require base to base contact (unlike CC attack) thus it does not fulfil those requirements.

    It's not the way I've ever seen it played but I haven't found anything that explicitly disproves it. Hardly a new occurrence for Infinity!
     
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  16. Ginrei

    Ginrei Well-Known Member

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    That's not correct. Inside a Zero Visibility Zone:

    troopers can only declare Skills that do not require LoF
    Dodge requires LoF so cannot be declared.

    or that require them to be in base to base contact with their target.
    Dodge does not require base to base to be used. It requires LoF and can be used in base to base. That's completely different to a CC Attack which only requires base to base.

    Dodge fulfills none of those requirements so can't be used. It can only be used within Smoke, just like a BS Attack, in response to a BS Attack. The rules seem quite clear to me.
     
  17. Kazavon

    Kazavon Uxia McNeil's #1 Fan

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    So your argument is that drawing LoF isn't the same as having LoF.

    What?
     
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    You should probably take this a bit more at face value. Unless you mean that a model that's not Engaged would be able to Dodge in response to enemy movement regardless of intervening ZVZs.

    I think Ginrei's interpretation is entirely correct and I've argued this before without major opposition. Touching a ZVZ when engaged means you can't draw LOF to opponents and opponents can't draw LOF to you, meaning skills need to either not require LOF (Change Facing or CC Attack) or they need to trigger a condition where LOF can be ignored (having sixth sense and being BS Attacked through the ZVZ).
    On the simple basis that Dodge is essentially the only skill that's affected and that you have access to Change Facing, I am not certain whether this is an oversight or that it's an oversight that even needs fixing.

    --

    I can see how this becomes a clash of specificity where it's a question of whether the general LOF rules for the case of CC are more specific than the Zero Visibility Rules. It's also annoying that the rules regarding drawing LOF in 360 is not included in the Engaged state, but the rule for only being able to draw LOF to melee base to base is.
     
    #18 Mahtamori, Jun 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2018
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  19. ijw

    ijw Wargaming Trader, Freelance Editor (UK)
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    You don't have access to Change Facing while Engaged.
     
  20. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Then it's probably an oversight they need to fix if they think Engaged should be able to Dodge while in ZVZ.