I tend to agree; but I do think they're geared against order spam. Most lists I write for them are 11-14 orders, placing them in the 'average order count', and often have difficulty breaking 13. It is, however, easy to write solid LI lists with them. So I think it's easy to see that they're skewed smaller order count. I actually agree that the Kriza HMG competes with Intruders and Moiras. Which is where the power creep comes in: our best gunfighter HMG options where either TAGs or Mi, with all of the associated problems. If Kriza were an MI (even say a SI or NWI one) wouldn't be talking about power creep. But as a HI it opens up options that were previously denied to Nomads.
TM HMG is a Pulsar short of being a decent unit. I use it in beer and pretzel lists in Bakunin all the time (with the BSG as a Duo). But it never really makes it to a competitive list. Outside of Grrls, Hollowmen and Kriza Nomad HI are boring. This is actually ok. My personal opinion is that Grrls and Kriza are too good. Hollowmen are good but their limitations probably prevent them being oppressive in the same way. That being said, we'll see how the next ITS season shakes this up. Edit: non-HMG TMs are also good but not Op. My bad :)
As much as I hate to admit it, I think I have come to this conclusion too. Grrls always seemed gross, but it's amazing to me how many different situations I throw into dice calculator end up with the optimal solution being "shoot it with a Kriza HMG", even at bad ranges. As for Tunguska being geared towards limited insertion, I only think it is as much as any other elite army is (Aleph, Combined, etc). I actually find myself in very awkward positions trying to build ten order lists with it. 12-14 orders with counterintelligence though? That seems right for them.
Taskmasters aren't boring, they're awesome! I don't really like the HMG, but all the other profiles are excellent troops with loads of flexibility. The Taskmaster Red Fury LT has been a great Datatracker for me too, in some missions. I would call them pretty damn competitive tbh, Pulzars, Koalas and HI with stealth is always useful.
The other profiles are great. TBH I missed mentioning them because I was being down on the HMG. The other profiles do interesting things not stronger things, it's why they're a solid choice but nobody suggests they're OP. They also don't benefit from an underpriced ability /equipment such as FA2, SMGs or Frenzy-links. Odd that ;)
Yeah but I'd say that the Kriza HMG is about as good as the Taskmaster Red Fury it almost shares a cost with, I don't think that FAL2 is underpriced at all either tbh.
@xagroth I never said task masters are not competitive, I said the hmg isn't competitive. The red fury is one of my favorite LT and data tracker choices. I love that profile, it's versitile and durable. If the goal is to take a hmg to kill everything, the choices are moria, intruder, or Kriza. Task masters are a swiss army knife of awesome, except for the hmg which has NONE of the extra tool kit, no pulsar, no koalas. He only has the ma 1 toolkit, which is less useful (not useless) on an hmg. Can't agree more with @Solar and @inane.imp . Zoe has never been the feature in Zoe and Pi well. She's someone you have to take to play with Pi Well. Regular hacking devices have always been downgrades in Nomads, and Mary specifically can't fill that role, she lacks access to support ware. I haven't tried the puppeteer with the puppets, I've been hesitant to run a 60 odd point link that dies if the puppet master goes down. I might be too risk averse. I do like the puppeteer a lot solo, but she hasn't been included in all my tunguska lists or vanilla lists. Maybe I'm just bad at this game.
Returning to the point though, Tunguska does have a considerably harder time list-building at higher order counts than other Nomads sectorials, due to higher troop costs across the board -- the line troop is more expensive, the infiltrator is significantly pricier, the HI are a lot more expensive, etc. Counterintelligence is a way to balance the fact that Tunguska feels very at home in the 11-12 order area, compared to the 12-14 that we see in so many other sectorials. I don't think "geared towards limited insertion" is the right phrasing, but it's certainly clear that Tunguska is playing lower order counts. The inclusion of a counterintelligence unit in OSS makes me think the same thing will be happening over there. I don't see this design-wise in NA2 at all. TAK is still up in the air. Line Kazaks are very cheap, and it looks like most of the TAK profiles we've seen have been in the 25-35 point range, which for me looks like an invitation to play in the 16-18 order realm.
Neither did I, just that the Taskmaster hasn't been mentioned much... It seems like most talks and lists are Riots (understandable now with StarCo), Kriza (new rule! Great loadout! Bad ruling: you needing to define which weapon will he use for Suppresive Fire when he activates the state, because it now demands to write it down or to remember it, I would vote to change his loadout -and that of all units) so only one weapon is capable of SF, or letting the player choose the weapon when firing. For simplicity and expediency's sake, mind you), Hollow Men (good weapon options, tinbot AHD and good BTS, fast first move plus superjump -werent the Riot Grrrls the "mobility HI" ones?- and everything is better with longcoats), etc... Frankly, the Taskmaster is a HI with Martial Arts and tinbot, so pretty much able to ignore Hackers in his Active Turn. Which makes the HMG "too static and long ranged" for a unit that wants to get close (or does not fear it, at least). Shame they can't Duo with a Kriza in vanilla (EVO being involved and all). She still is a high WIP hacker/engineer that costs 0 SWC, so give her some servitors and enjoy... (and she has a good extra program!). Zoe + Interventor + Mary = everything, yeah, but I prefer 1-2 H+ Interventors and a KHD Interventor (frigging Lightning...) plus Zoe, who gives so many options... ("exorcism" my Eggie after a bad BTS roll against Posession thanks to Pi-well's Repeater, 2 DAM 13 shock shoots from an ODD model in cover and extreme range, etc...). And the old model can double as a female Irmandinho, with old PiWell as Red Fury puppet, if you have the new one :p Minelayering puppeteer in the hidiest of the holes you can deploy him (prone), shotgun FO puppet + 2 rifle puppets is a very inexpensive "Haris" able to really stop the enemy in his tracks, or make a great nuisance without sacrificing an order. Worst case scenario, you can ARO with them and not fear losing orders, which I can tell you is one of the greatest assets Posthuman profiles have in Aleph. They really shine in Vanilla, however, since that makes you the only human vanilla with a Haris and all options a vanilla faction has :p More comfortable there than anything the faction had before, if you prefer. The puppetactic gives extreme order efficiency, and you can the place a Haris (Grenzerx2+Interventor) plus Core of Hollow Men (3 to 5 members), and a heckler (and maybe 1-2 Spekters), and that is really noticeable. As for Vedic, considering how Aleph is, and how Vanilla removing Greek units is, yeah, it was always going to be "elite" :p
Martial arts => Stealth, then the Tinbot (BTS 6 on Taskmaster, then a -3 to the attacking Hacker) makes him quite able to keep going, the worst that can happen to him is an Oblivion, then an IMM-1, from hackers. Now, I have no idea what official response is required to what, frankly. Is there a doubt on how Tinbots work? :S
Tinbots aren’t troopers so don’t generate an ARO. @Mahtamori meant to refer to Koalas. Koalas do generate an ARO as if Troopers. Stealth doesn’t prevent a Trooper being targeted by AROs, just from generating them (nothing in the rules necessarily limits you to targeting the Trooper who generated the ARO, just active Troopers). So if the Koalas trigger an ARO for a Hacker then the Hacker can choose to target the TM with it. If this isn’t true then: The more extreme example is a Crane AHD + CG KSCD who without this interaction would be able to force HDs, AHDs and HD+ to ARO against the CG KSCD rather than the Crane. You can also use it to force Change Facing vs a CC Attack if the victim doesn’t have LOF. TM moves into B2B with Stealth, Koala moves inside 8”. Due Stealth the TM doesn’t generate an ARO but the Koala does. There’s several threads about it. It hasn’t been confirmed either way but the first interpretation (that you don’t need to target the trooper who generated the ARO just active Troopers) is generally held to be better supported by the rules. It is, admittedly, far from clear either way.
DOH! I'm only on my third cup of tea. Give me an hour and I'll have enough tea in me to wake up! It's just blind luck that the Tinbot profiles also have Koalas :p
Don't really see them in that high order count. Unless you wanna spam like 10 kazaks...then, might as well play vanilla because you will have access to better profiles(van z,uxia,cateran,chasseur,foxtrot,volounteers...) and will not loose that much? who even cares about kazak link, single spetnaz has better firepower than kazak link. With most troops being in that 25-35pts range, means 10 of them is around 300pts. But I will wait till sectorial drops and we see what they have prepared for us, I am excited because as my primary faction, TAK has best models so far in ariadna(okay, old and new chasseur are actually awesome and probably one of the best in range, not counting that meh female one...)
That's why you slap the Koalas on standby mode around an objective and then sneak into position to kill a fool.
I think reducing damage to 12 and splitting SMG to two options with AP or Shock would be the best way. New sectorials have all been pretty middling in power there hasn't been any power creep there. USAr? No. Onyx is hard mode. I'm assuming these sectorials are still expecting some additions. You could say the whole game was raised in power when a ton of trash units were changed for N3 and HSN3 but that's not really creep. I don't think there's been creep.
One thing that's important to remember is that there is no such thing as a perfectly balanced system. SMGs are strong, troops with them have an inbuilt drive towards efficiency of a certain kind (active turnbengagements within 8" and suppression fire defence) and it makes things like Hakims more desirable. This is true of many other equipment, skills, statlines etc in the game. And this is fine! Certain levels of strengths, weaknesses, efficiencies etc drive list creation and tactical discussions in the game, and the changing and evolving meta revolves around that too. If SMGs were DAM 12 that'd be perfectly reasonable for the cost, it would decrease the efficiency of some units, make others more desirable, change the metagame etc. That'd be okay too. But I think we overly place a significance on these things individually; SMGs are not a large and overwhelming part of the game, they aren't that unbalanced, there isn't a general problem of huge imbalance in Infinity anyway, or a problem with power creep, and certainly not one stemming from SMGs.
