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SMGs as a "discount option"

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by paraelix, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    They did indeed.

    Not that anyone took anything then that still doesn't have the 360 visor, mind.
     
  2. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Correct, I was referring to the shasvasty model using scavenger on models that she fought herself.

    For moderators dropping the combi to a smg and losing points. That's the whole purpose of my post, that will not happen because making a less efficient model is the intent. You can see that the developers know how to make models with such strong internal synergy (like the ryukin) that is very powerful. While some other models is such a smorgishboard of tacked on rules that the total cost is not worth it (such as andromeda).

    So yes the moderators could lose shock immunity, replace gun with an smg and be one of the cheapest line infantry. But the developers won't do it as that as that model isn't supposed to be THAT good.
     
    #222 kinginyellow, Aug 20, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2018
  3. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @kinginyellow so why not just make the SMG cost more so you don't have to jump through the hoop of adding skill bloat to avoid making smg troopers undercosted?
     
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  4. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Because sometimes the goal would be to make the model undercosted, boosting the power of a particular faction by making a significantly stronger than normal model (as far as cost benefit analysis is concerned).

    And while I admit that the easier answer would be to just artificial lower the cost without having to match any point structure. If required to behave within rules forced upon you, it makes sense.
     
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  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @kinginyellow nobody's forcing rules on CB. It's their game.
     
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  6. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    Their own beliefs are. Someone commented that they follow a point structure without a lot of deviating from it.

    To me that sounds like a bad idea, a guideline to prevent power creep and keep models generally in line makes sense, but a point structure that must be internally abided by seems to cause issues like this.
     
  7. Section9

    Section9 Well-Known Member

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    Well, you need someone really good at math and statistics to get a non-explody points system.

    I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, how Star Fleet Battles has a points system that includes range to target as one of the variables, and how one of the ships gets about a 30% increase in points value when it gets really close (within point-defense phaser range, if you care).

    But that's a rules system written by engineers for a board game, so range to target is always easily measured. And they still managed to create a system that requires calculus. Then again, that may just be engineers at work.
     
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  8. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Every Engineer I know prefers estimation to actually doing maths: they can maths to survive but would really prefer not

    Edit: my GF (an engineer) just reminded me "That's pretty much why we built computers."
     
  9. Brother Smoke

    Brother Smoke Bureau Trimurti Representative

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    I still believe the fix to SMGs would be removing some DAM so it does the same as a pistol and/or removing special ammo types
     
  10. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    In this case it's the point system itself that's causing the power creep.
     
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  11. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    I dispute that there's even been power creep. Some of the most directly powerful troop profiles in the game are original back in the day Infinity troop profiles, and everything got a big redo not that long ago.
     
  12. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    I have to agree with @Solar here. I'm not sure I can agree this game has been subject to power creep, mutts and posthumans are the most griped about units individually and mk 2 and ghazi are ancient. (Admittedly the mk 5 is new, but isn't out of line with the other post humans).

    Similarly I take Kriza for a change of pace, not because Intruders are weaker. Morlocks are my favorite nomad unit.

    I don't feel Tunguska is OP, especially compared to vanilla. I really miss some options, like zeros, morlocks, jaguars and tomcats.
     
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  13. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Tunguska struggles with it's lack of cheap defensive templates and orders, I think. They're very playable but definitely a tougher Sectoral to master than Corregidor or Bakunin and certainly not more powerful than either.
     
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  14. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    Certainly, I've been playing them exclusively since release, because I've been waiting... 5 years for them?

    I enjoy them a lot and have been doing just fine with them, but they certainly don't feel like a jump in power over vanilla.

    I don't feel like there has been power creep on an individual model basis, though more recent profiles have included other weapons than combis, which I think is great, people like different tools. I do think people are selling combis longer active turn range bands short. Though to make use of it is table/meta dependant. If you can always engage within 8, yeah the smg is a straight up upgrade.

    I also don't think factions as a whole have been subject to any degree of power creep.
     
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  15. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    There are examples of everything, everywhere. Interventors are THE HACKER of the game, but it is hard to go over what is a BTS9 WIP15 for 25pts (Uahu with the NWI has interesting options, but she loses 3BTS and 1WIP; her lost of a Combi does not bother me at all).

    The new wave of sectorials gives me the feeling of being oriented to Limited Insertion (aside from those that were already, that is).

    Now, about posthumans, I would like to say one thing: they were changed with Human Sphere N3 (about mid-2015) with about 4pts discount for all 3 proxies (the Mk4 and Mk5 came much later... even after Hector), making all bodies count as a single unit (they used up 2-3 slots in the combat group!) and the Mk2 was crappy as hell, unable to make Surprise Shot, ARO from Hidden Deployment, or have an easy to read explanation of mechanics. So they are not "that" ancient.
    The Muttas have been considered broken by a lot of people for ages, but I think the only "adjustment" they will see is losing smoke unless in Hassassin (being WIP 15 is a joke, frankly).
    Now, power creep shows up in different ways. A lot of new stuff is getting a staple that was kinda the trope in PanO: they pay for just what they need, and nothing else; now this is possible, without being boring, by the addition of new rules... without the simplification, streamlining and grouping of old ones (we don't need five different weapons that are, in the end, a mine with a different kind of ammo: just call them "E/M mines", "Shock mines", "Throwable shock mines", "Viral mines", "monofilament mines", etc... We all do at tournaments anyway!).
     
  16. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    That's not power creep though. PanO is plenty strong, it's just dull, is the oft-heard issue.

    Also the new wave of Sectorals seem geared towards being interesting to me, which is definitely good. But I don't think any of the NA2 Sectorals are geared to Limited Insertion, or Tunguska (more than anyone else), and I highly doubt that TAK or OS will be (TAK is Ariadna, home of cheap spammable camo shit, and OS has the Dakini core).
     
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  17. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Personally I think CB has done an excellent job limiting the Sectorial power creep.

    I'm less sure about profiles. Mary Sue and Kriza HMG both overpower existing profiles (Custodier AHD/Moira AHD and MB HMG/TM HMG). Mary Sue* is actually less problematic than the Kriza because it doesn't open up the 'I just shoot it in the face' options the Kriza doea, options that previously had the caveat 'and hope I don't get Crit' in Nomads.

    I don't, however, think that it's too much of a problem. It's still at the "exercise caution" warning level.

    KHDs aren't actually a 'power creep' problem. They're a game design problem.

    The same is probably true of SMGs. Dropping them to 12 damage wouldn't actually break any of the units equiped with them but it would feel better while still giving CB a quality '4pts cheaper than BSG, B3 gun' option.
     
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  18. natetehaggresar

    natetehaggresar Senior Backlogged Painter Manager

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    @inane.imp I don't consider the TM HMG or the Brigada HMG to be the primary competitor to the Kriza hmg. (I think both those are "sectorial options"). In vanilla if you want to kill something with an HMG the prime choices for me were Moira hmg or intruder hmg, now the Kriza competes in there too.

    I agree in vanilla Mary obsoletes the custoldier ahd and moria ahd, but for the record I never took those profiles anyway. If I wanted an assult hacker I normally would go to the zero (or spektr) who I always felt did it better anyway for less. Being protected with a marker state and starting midfield which is where an assult hacker needs to be unless you already have a deep repeater net in place. Again both those profiles might have a place in Sectorial, if you prefer them to a zero ahd.

    For what it's worth I would be fine with adjustments to khds and smgs. At the same time I'm okay leaving them as is.

    Edit: and I don't think Mary obsoletes zero or spektr ahds for me in vanilla
     
    #238 natetehaggresar, Aug 21, 2018
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
  19. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    NA2 are fairly neutral, frankly, but Tunguska??? I dare you to reach 20 orders like Bakunin, Corregidor or vanilla can, and for reaching 15 orders it has to take 4 remotes of 8 points each, a Core of Securitate, and go really light. It's only infiltrator being a 30ish points TO (Spekter) certainly does not point to spammable!

    I find it really hard to not place a Marionetist in every vanilla list I ever make from now on. And really hard to not try and save the points to deploy a 6 wounds Haris, even if it's the 1 shotgun+2 precision rifles with MM1

    Funny how the Taskmaster has been forgotten everywhere.

    no, but she obsoletes all hackers but those, Interventors and maybe Zoe...
     
  20. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    20 orders is beyond what I would consider a minimum for not being "geared towards LI" and the fewer viable 20 order lists in 300pts the better IMO.
     
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