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SMGs as a "discount option"

Discussion in 'Access Guide to the Human Sphere' started by paraelix, Aug 8, 2018.

  1. Nemo No Name

    Nemo No Name Aleph Cultural Atache

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    Well, let's be realistic. You don't want her in any CC anyway. Outside that, SMG has AP rounds so you're fine. Not to mention multiwound models won't be dying to Shock/Viral anyway.

    But I do agree it's a bit funny giving Scavenger to someone with so much Shock and Viral XD
     
  2. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    For all the Skornergy (shock/viral + scavenger, short range weapons + no way to get close) she has going, she is still quite decent and cheap. Also, only 6 points less than Mary, but Mary is utterly ok and this game has no balance problems whatsoever.
     
  3. Zewrath

    Zewrath Elitist Jerk

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    Must admit that I snorted in laughter when V:NWI and V:Dogged was talked about as being undercosted. Aside from the new release I saw at the interplanetario seminar, almost everything had either shock, multi ammo or red fury plastered all over it. This game is now so full of shock that I don’t even consider those valour skills to have anything but a minor value unless they have immunities.
     
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  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    TBH that's not an issue with SMGs, it's an 'issue' with CC costs.

    A better comparison is a Custodier AHD and Mary. A Combi vs SMG, CC 14 vs 13, ARM 1 vs 3 pays for FWD Dep, Zapper, a KHD, BTS6 and 4-4 Move (the 2pts difference pays for BS12 and Phys 11).

    CC is a classic bloat option, ARM is widely acknowledged to be overcosted whereas SMGs and KHDs are widely considered to be undercosted. The result is that 'traditional' profiles are seen as 'suboptimal' in comparison to new profiles.
     
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  5. toadchild

    toadchild Premeasure

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    It's sort of like giving a model with protheion a red fury and a monofilament weapon!
     
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  6. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    The Custodier AHD is not a common profile, but I do think there are reasons to take it compared to Mary; the Custodier is better in a firefight, with BS 12 and a proper rifle. ARM 3 is considered underpowered in general yes... I don't agree with that, we can leave it there if you like. I like higher ARM quite a bit, because it's almost always useful! It's not reliable, but it does make a difference. If you want a better hacker, Mary is the choice, if you want the hacker to be engaging in firefights, the Custodier is superior.
     
  7. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    I feel like I'm the only one thinking a E/M2 template on an AD model with ODD is pure BS.


    So many acronyms!!
     
  8. benn

    benn Well-Known Member

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    Mary is forward deployment, not airborne. Unless there's a super unit I'm forgetting.
     
  9. loricus

    loricus Satellite Druid

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    That would be too much on an AD that already has so much else, but that's fortunately not the case.
     
  10. Benkei

    Benkei Well-Known Member

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    With AD i mean advance deployment, not airborne, sorry.
     
  11. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    What about Zhansi and celestial guard? Does 3 bts really costs more than 1 point?
     
  12. Cartographer

    Cartographer Well-Known Member

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    CG pay 2 points for a single-step increase in WIP and a single-step increase in BTS over the Zanshi (remember, BTS only ever changes by three points), seems about right.
    The worse comparison is between Zanshi and Alguacile, CB have chosen to bump the Zanshi's CC by a single figure, to increase the profile cost by 1 point, I figure the combination of BS, WIP and ARM comes to just below a 0.5 point value (so gets rounded down on the Alguacile), with the CC bump it takes them over than 0.5 value (so gets rounded up on the Zanshi).
     
  13. eciu

    eciu Easter worshiper

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    And here comes Order Sergeant paying 2 pts for this +2 CC xD
     
  14. Niebieskooki

    Niebieskooki Blue Sun Lieutenant

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    In comparision to CG it has 1+ more CC, BS + religious while having -1 WIP and -3 bts. I'd say Order Sergeant is quite better.

    If you compare Order Sergeant to Fusilier it has religious trait, so mayby it also has a point value,
     
  15. paraelix

    paraelix Seed Embryo Scholar

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    My Keisotsu would pay +1 pt to get +2BS instead of V:Courage in a heartbeat. Pretty sure Moderators would likewise give up some BTS and Shock Immunity for the same privelige. But apparently only PanO whining deserves to be heard.
     
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  16. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Ryuken-9 are up there for me. What do you think of my point about synergy on drop troops and their weapon loadouts?
     
  17. kinginyellow

    kinginyellow Well-Known Member

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    I think that corvus belli has set the smgs as a little underpriced but recognize that sometimes adding extra skills (with increased cost) make a less effecient model. Like shock immunity on a moderator or the new shasvasty model having scavenger and having viral mines/viral pistols/shock ccw/knife/shock rounds on her 2 smgs to make extremely difficult to actually use that scavenger. It makes it clear, imho, that they know a certain combos of abilities like ryukin-9 are very powerful while others are so niche that it's almost irrelevant like the moderators.

    So its undercosted, intentionally so it seems, to allow for strong cheap option when the faction warrants it and is not given when it would unbalance the faction.

    And for the discussion of too overpowered, the ryukin-9 is quite a powerhouse but something like the thorakitai is meh designated as a corner guard or a smuck being led around by thrash due to his ODD and light rocket launcher. So the SMG itself is not enough to make a model top notch.
     
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  18. xagroth

    xagroth Mournful Echo

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    You mean by herself, don't you? Besides, there are several ITS missions with panoplies and the like that specify how troops with Booty and/or Scavenger won't roll, either suceeding authomatically or choosing what they wanna grab...
    It is quite strange how ALL the SMG's are on new troops and the Thorakitai (a "revisited" troop with a new shiny box, before the change they not only had no SMG but also costed more, carried flash grenades, had no precision rifle nor Feuerbach). I'd say the Moderators would love to drop the Combi for an SMG and cost 7 points apiece...
     
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  19. Solar

    Solar Well-Known Member

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    Maybe Moderators would, but they can't.

    Also Ryuken are fine. They're great, sure, but they need to be considered within the context of the JSA troop options and limitations (lack of ranged firepower, SWC squeezed etc). Would they be OP in Nomads? Maybe, but they aren't in Nomads.
     
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  20. Del S

    Del S Tunguskaball

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    So apparently Thorakitai had the SMG in N2 alongside flash grenades and 360 visors all round (no pun intended) when SMGs were shock only. Then they were AP only. Now they're both.
     
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