So SMGs seem to be becoming the post-child weapon for "discounted" profiles as more newer units come out. Most of the community seems to be flustered by this, due to it's ability to go into Suppression and bring to bear multiple ammo types. I was spit-balling ideas with some people the other day about how the SMG could be reviewed to be less OTT for it's cost discount. Consensus seemed to be that it should either have a fixed ammo type to reduce it's flexibility, or have all ammo types stripped away in favour of something like Burst 4 (a larger version of an Assault Pistol). Now, I haven't run numbers/stats/percentages to gauge the power of this... Just spitballing ideas like the thread regarding AP.
Personally, I'd drop it to DAM 12 or even 11. Right now they seem to be very much a bargain, being so much cheaper than a combi-rifle it seems, and yet arguably more effective thanks to AP or Shock rounds. Making rifles and shotguns kick out a little more damage puts the SMG into an adjusted role: Now you balance the firepower it provides with it being a little weaker, making everything that little bit tougher. For an extensive and silly plan, swap some current SMGs to be called Personal Defence Weapons and back to AP only. Alter others (with a slight points boost) to become MULTI PDWs with B1 stun and DA modes like the bigger rifle version. Alter some more to be "Heavy SMGs" with DAM 13 and Shock, representing SMGs firing heavy calibre pistol rounds, most likely hollowpoints or equivelant. Then have your "Light SMG", a DAM 12 B3 N weapon. Take it a step further and have the "Burp Gun", a DAM 11 B4 variant. Oh, and also add a Shock Pistol, DAM 12, B2(1inCC), it's firing the heavy SMG's rounds, just because
Honestly there's a huge number things they could do to improve the balance, pick one or two of the following: 1) Remove AP mode 2) Remove Shock mode 3) Reduce DAM to 12 4) Increase cost by 1 point 5) Nerf the 0 rangeband to -3 (doesn't make suppressive worse, but makes the ODD/TO guys packing SMGs much less of a threat in the active turn even if they take your cover.) On the other hand, I think all 5 of these miss a lot of the real reason people are complaining -- MULTI and Combi rifles are a little overpriced, and a lot of people seeing the SMG as the budget option come from factions with stuff like the Combi+LSG tax. Give them a worse version of the SMG, even (like a "light combi" that's just an SMG without AP/Shock) and they'll be pretty happy. That's my take, at least.
Pretty sure the reason the SMG has the shock/ap ammo it does is literally just because of that scene in Ghost in the Shell. Points cost is something that I don't think will really get addressed - to me the only real option would be to drop it to DAM12. It's a much more reasonable weapon that way.
I'd like to see damage drop to DAM 11, and/or the ammo types removed. Its a really cheap gun, so it really does need to be upped in price or drastically cut in effectiveness. Also wondering if the Red Fury is the SWC weapon of SMGs. Seeing an awful lot of them on the new dossiers, and they are arguably better than spitfires due to that sweet shock ammo.
Just delete the ammo types, leave it at dam 13. Units that want actual ammo types could pay some points for them. Watching a ryuken-9 engage and destroy an O-yoroi at one of the gencon tournaments from more than 16" away made me realize that infinity's bias towards vision-mod troopers is alive and well. To be frank it's getting a little ridiculous. I want my Shrouded to get an ultracheap 19 point smg profile to compete. Or a 20 point FO specialist. Submachine guns are, I think, a 4th place shitty rules element in my eyes after Symbiomates, Jammers, and Proxies, but the more I see them the closer it gets to the damning three.
Alternatively, it does make the new sectorials have more efficient/powerful models, which aids in selling them.
I prefer to put CB on a high horse of not overpowering new things in order to sell them. Impossible, but let me have that fantasy =/ Honestly I'd consider vision mods one of those shitty rules elements too. Way too much bullet proof shield and way too little an actual form of stealth or invisibility.
Don't tell me you feel like mk5 proxy with forward deloyment,4-4, 2x smg, NWI,BS13,wip 15,FO,nanopulser em granades,arm/bts 3 for 10pts is cheap? Oh but you need 2 proxies, and only 1 can ract...anyone wants wip15, NWI medic/engineer for 10pts? SMG problem is even worse in Ariadna, where rifle is shittier variant of combi. So SMG kinda becomes no brainer. We need it on few of our infiltrators to bring cost a bit more down,lol, since they are handling them left and right as it seems.
I don't think they are going this route. But they have the problem that they want to make the new sectorials different from the existing ones, while the old sectorials still pay for the pricing decisions that were made when N3 came out. And they can't change exisiting rules yet. We have to wait until the next book, imho, to see improvements in weapons or profile costs. On the topic of the SMGs, I would drop the special ammo and leave it DAM13.
A pip or two of damage and remove AP would be fine I reckon. It doesn't make a lot of sense that they can pack both AP and shock on the same platform. They're good guns, but not broken. rangebands are pretty important.
SMG is the gun equivalent of the Killer Hacker, ever since HSN3. As in "can't think of anything to add this unit, idk lol give it KHD/SMG or sumthin"
Before it was introduced i thought it was going to be a high burst low damage weapon, like damage 12 / 11 burst 4 / 5
Not quite sure how smaller and more compact weapon than rifle, with smaller ammo caliber end up being more deadly, with a bit worse range than rifle. It's like H&K mp5 has far deadlier caliber than M4/AK47, and with mp5 you end up penentrating APC/breacher shields/kevlar vests... on the field,lol
Yeah, like WHY? Logic doesn't work here. Why is a more compact weapon capable of firing AP projectiles, and an assault rifle (Combi) isn't? Look at the magazines, Combis and Rifles obviously have more powerful cartridges with heavier bullets, but... ARM 8 tags save on 6+ against Combis (high caliber, high velocity etc etc), but on 10+ against a PDW. Stripping AP/Shock from SMGs and making them just Normal ammunition seems to be a good thing.
Ofcourse it does, guns still have barrel, stock(though some make no sense like that naga sniper), triger,magazine...you squeez trigger, bullets go through hole on front end of barrel...see, perfectly logical :D
It is more likely that Infinity SMGs are more like P90 and MP7. They also use Armor piercing rounds. The calibre is comparebal to that of an M4 or AK74. An MP5 uses 9mm Para Rounds and is outdated compared to modern PDW. You also made a common mistake to compare AK47 and M4. The comparsion should be AK74 to M4since both use comparable ammo. I think you could go with: MP5 or Beretta 93R=Assault Pistol MP7 or P90=SMG AK74 or M4=Combirifle/Rifle A47, G3 or M14=Marksman Rifle I have to admit that the last comparsion is somewhat lacking for the AK47 since it never was used as Marksman rifle as far as i know.
While MP7 and P90 rounds can pierce soft vests, they can't pierce hard plates. Then again, neither can M4 or AK74 rounds. Also, just using the P90 as an example, it's rounds have roughly 1/2 to 2/3 the mass of an M4's and should be moving "roughly" the same speed when they exit the muzzle (5.7x28mm for the P90, 5.56x45mm for the M4). Just the cartridge dimensions should show the M4 fires a significantly more powerful round. SMGs in the Infinity universe would have to be based on something other than modern PDWs, unless the rules writers really didn't do their research and just made weapons profiles based off of video games.
