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Sixth Sense (Delay) vs Marker State

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Diphoration, Jan 14, 2020.

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  1. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Program X is the delay. Different ways to get there, different effects of getting there.
     
  2. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I know that's what you meant, but it's still not even remotely what's happening here because you've made a complete mess of where the restrictions are placed and the analogy is completely unusable because of this because there is no undergraduate and because the postgraduate does not anywhere stipulate that it allows them to avoid the grant's requirement of three letters of recommendation.

    Let's break this down a bit.
    Camouflage skill states that if you delay you lose your ARO under conditions, thus; Program X requires three letters of recommendation.
    Camouflage skill states that any trooper may delay against them, thus: Undergraduates are allowed to apply to Program X, but not any other programs.
    Sixth Sense skill states that you may delay against any target, thus; Postgraduates are allowed to apply to any program.
    Sixth Sense does not state that the restrictions on delaying against Camouflaged State found in Camouflage skill is removed, which the Camouflaged Trooper is using, thus: where is it implied that the requirement for supplying three letters of recommendation is removed for postgraduates just because that their graduation allows them to apply for any programs?
     
  3. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    The grant doesn't have a blanket requirement of three letters. That's specific to undergraduates who apply.
     
  4. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Is it, though? Camouflage says that a trooper who delays lose their chance to ARO if the Marker isn't revealed by second Short Skill, it doesn't say that this is specific to delaying in this way and neither does Sixth Sense say that its delay is sufficiently different.
    You can't just say "I choose to not use your Camouflaged state so I can attack you"

    The problem with your example is that you've equated the benefits of the grant with those of the student's grade of education applying for it. Paraphrasing Camouflage's rules (CR);
    1. <Anyone> may only do X, Y, Z
    2. <Anyone> may <delay> and do A, B, C instead
    3. <Anyone> may <any action> unless <event>

    Meanwhile, Sixth Sense user's (SSU) rules says, again paraphrased;
    Explicit. <Sixth Sense> may when <condition>, <delay> with no specified restrictions or extra allowance for which action

    So, here's the problems I'm having when reading the rules as you imply
    1. The SSU may ignore CR3, but not CR1 - why doesn't Sixth Sense also allow you to ignore the first bullet point as well?
    2. <Anyone> is the user of CR, not the camouflage skills' owner - why should we read the CR as being a skill that the opponent makes use of instead of a restriction on the opponent?
    3. So a delay is no longer a delay because it is written in a different place in the rules now?
     
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  5. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    I think I'm going to bow out of the conversation. The grant stuff was just giving Diphoration an example in response to solkan's post about qualifying for a program.
     
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  6. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    @ijw, @Mahtamori thank you for your examples.

    Here is an example that I made that illustrates (hehe) how I view the rule.
    [​IMG]

    In this example, even though Chasseur Chad has a Sixth Sense priviledge card that allows him to dance anywhere he wants, he can only dance ballet while inside the Marker State club.

    Angus can dance while in the establishment, so can Chad (even though he can dance in any other establishment). But the club "ARO vs CH Markers" is bound by some rules that restrict how dancing happens.

    My biggest issue is treating Sixth Sense as ignoring anything Marker States have to do about delay, simply because they said the word "trooper". A trooper in marker state is a more precise definition of a trooper, and in a ruleset, more precise rule should always apply to broader statements.

    Just like how you are allowed to declare certain ARO versus a trooper, but the trooper being in marker state restricts your ARO.
    (Or in my example, you are allowed to wear any color you want versus a trooper, but versus a marker, you ARO are restricted to Discover, Change Facing or Dodge) (First Bullet Point of AROs against CH Markers)

    http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Camouflage_and_Hiding_(CH)#AROs_against_CH_Markers

    *Edited emphasis with colour on text in the image.
     
    #26 Diphoration, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  7. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Sorry, I missed some of this.

    I don't think this is an accurate paraphrasing.

    • The only AROs available against a CH: Camouflage Marker (CAMO) or a CH: TO Camouflage Marker (TO CAMO) are Discover, Change Facing, and Dodge.
    • Bear in mind that when reacting to a CH: Camouflage or CH: TO Camouflage Marker, you may delay your ARO declaration until after the Marker declares its second Short Skill.
    • However, if you choose to delay your ARO, you may only declare it if the Camouflage Marker revealed itself with its second Short Skill. If the Marker does not reveal itself, the reactive trooper loses his right to ARO.

    The 'however' at the start of the third bullet point makes it a subordinate clause of the second bullet point. So it applies when you have used the second bullet point.

    Sixth Sense users don't need to use the second bullet point, so any clauses that depend on the second bullet point won't apply.

    So your paraphrasing becomes:

    1. <Anyone> may only do X, Y, Z
    2. <Anyone> may <delay> and do A, B, C instead
    2.1 <Anyone> who did step 2 may <any action> unless <event>​

    Two clauses, with one sub-clause.
     
  8. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    The issue is that it is not formulated like this and is much more akin to how it is formulated in my visual picture.
    • The lack of clarity comes from the fact that this is its own bullet point.
    • The bullet point isn't tabbed.
    • The explicit example in Sixth Sense vs camo does not explicitely states the intent that you can do an ARO vs a non-marker. While the explicit example in Sixth Sense vs non-camo explicitely states the intent that you can do a ARO vs a non-marker.
    • That rule is under "AROs vs CH Markers" which even if you are using Sixth Sense, you are still ARO'ing vs a CH Markers and are bound to those rules.
    • That in the example of Sixth Sense delaying vs a Camo, they group both delay together as if it didn't matter which triggered the delay, and makes no mentions of needing to choose what is used for delaying.
    • That "delay" is never defined in the rules.
    I feel like there is a lot of things that makes it so that if that was the intent, they did a very poor job of making it obvious.

    - - - - -

    However, all the bullet points make sense if you treat it in the way that I showed it in the picture.

    • The bullet point being a separate thing makes sense.
    • The bullet point not being tabbed makes sense.
    • The explicit example in Sixth Sense vs camo not stating that you can ARO makes sense. The explicit example defining how delay works vs a non-camo makes sense at as it is never defined anywhere else in the rule.
    • The rule under "AROs vs CH Markers" still applying because you're still ARO'ing a Marker.
    • The grouping of both together makes sense as they are interchangeable, and not having a specification of "why" you are delaying makes no difference as they are treated the same way.
    • Delay does not need to be defined as it behaves the same way everywhere.
    - - - - -

    I feel like one solution flows much nicer.
     
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  9. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Huh? It literally is, that's how 'however' is used in English. It explicitly ties a clause starting with 'however' to a previous clause. This is basic English grammar.

    'However' means that bullet point 3 has no meaning by itself. It can only be applied when combined with the previous bullet.
     
  10. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    The underlined text is not really implied at all, that's an interpretation of the sentence as a whole. The underlined text should read "who <delay>" (which is barely an abbreviation of what the rule say). If we allow ourselves to interpret the 3rd bullet point as a sub-clause due to "however", then I'd also point out that the second bullet point is not a rule on its own, but written as a reminder of a rule that doesn't exist due to the words "bear in mind" - and as such a sub-clause itself.

    Note that I can see the thought process of both interpretations, but I see it as a difference between viewing it as either a blacklist or a whitelist, but that the rules have missed telling us whether it is a blacklist or a whitelist - so I'm not actually saying your interpretation is wrong, but I'm saying that your assertion that the interpretation of @Diphoration is wrong is not correct, either, because I can't see anywhere in the rules where it clearly states whether which way we should look at this.
    Basically
    Blacklist : You need a key to unlock the action, and you can only use one key and may not use any permissions or restrictions of other keys.
    Whitelist : You can be given multiple permissions to do an action, but should there be conditions that put restrictions on this type of action you have to apply all restrictions set forth unless another rule permits you to avoid them (e.g. optional label).

    Kind of, it's the closest analogy I can think of for describing the two interpretations.

    In either case, this is entirely in keeping with Sixth Sense' appalling use of requirements.
     
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  11. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    Yes. Each clause is written as being dependant on the previous clause.

    So it's:
    Clause
    Sub-clause
    Sub-sub-clause

    You can't take the sub-clauses independently.
     
  12. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    It's not even about taking the sub-clauses independently, the subclause 2 can still be respected based on the interpretation.

    - - - - -

    "The Maakrep Tracker is allowed to delay her ARO both because the active trooper is a TO Marker and because of her Sixth Sense L1."

    Using the word "both, and" rather than "either, or" makes it seem as those the trigger are completely irrelevant, and that in either cases the target is "reacting to a CH: Camouflage or CH: TO Camouflage Marker" and "may delay your ARO declaration until after the Marker declares its second Short Skill.".

    It doesn't make it very clear that the bullet 3 is to be discarded as the bullet 2 is still in effect.

    If it explicitely said that you get to chose to delay "either" because of a trigger "or" because of another, it would be crystal clear.

    - - - - -

    Making sure the text clearly states the intent would be a matter of adding a couple words to any of the sentence. Adding the last line of the ARO vs non-marker in the example of Sixth Sense to the ARO vs marker in the example of Sixth Sense would avoid any kind of debate should that be the intent.
     
  13. gorin

    gorin Well-Known Member

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    Sooooo... why

    REQUIREMENTS

    In order to use Sixth Sense L1,

    • An enemy must be inside the user's Zone of Control.
    • That enemy must declare an Attack against the user.
    is not clause - sub-clause thing?
     
    #33 gorin, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
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  14. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    No, I don't agree that the second bullet point is written using language that refers to the first bullet point at all. There is nothing in the second bullet point that depends on the first bullet point and the consequence of reading it as such and applying your own view on how delay from Sixth Sense works would mean that a unit with Sixth Sense may react to a Camouflaged Marker using any skill provided it does not target the Marker with an attack (which is separately prevented by the State).

    But you might be saying that a Sixth Sense unit may use Sixth Sense to deploy an AP Mine (e.g. Yuriko in a Core)?
     
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  15. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
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    ?!?
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I thought it was obvious that the second bullet was not dependant on the first bullet seing how the first bullet required no information from the first bullet to function, similar to how Sixth Sense' 5th bullet point isn't dependent on the 4th bullet point.
    "Sub-clause of a rule on a different page (that doesn't exist)"
     
  17. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    Fresh and simple perspective maybe?

    If I read this correctly, the confusion seems to stem from some of you guys reading both the permissions and the limitations of "Delay vs camo marker" and "Delay because I have Sixth Sense and the enemy is in my ZOC" as happening concurrently. Therefore, you assume that even if you Delay thanks to the enemy in your ZOC while you have SSL1, you are also limited in what kinds of ARO you can take by his being a marker, due to the other rule of "Delay vs camo marker". This seems to be incorrect.

    What @ijw seems to be trying to convey (correct me please, mate if that's not the case!) is that only one of those "triggers" needs to be active at a time (here: SSL1), which allows you to fully disregard the limitations and stipulations of the other (here: Camo marker).

    They are two completely separate paths to the ability to Delay ARO, they do not overlap. You just choose which option (path) you take and act accordingly. Hence, the types of actions in SSL1 Delay ARO are not limited. You could choose the "Camo Delay ARO" path, but that would limit your options, so it's a worse choice if both are available (enemy is in ZOC, you have SSL1 AND they are a Camo).

    This is a design issue that the lack of overlap between the two "sources" of Delay is not stated openly. It's clear how players might assume that "all technically applicable rules apply fully to all situations", but this is clearly not the case. It's enough that there exists a single "path" to your expected result (Delay ARO), and if there are two or more, you are free to pick one and be limited only by that one, not the others.

    A decent analogy would be moving from A to B, over a building, I think. You Move over it if there are ladders, you can Super Jump over it, you can Climb over it, there are different techniques and rules which get you the same end result - your mini in point B, on the other side of the building. You only pick one of them and thus you are limited only by that one rule, along with its permissions. The limitations of the other rules are disregarded, because you've made your pick.
     
    #37 Nuada Airgetlam, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
  18. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    Naw, mate, you're thoroughly stuck in a specific perspective and you're interpreting the other interpretation's result from that perspective.

    A delay is a delay and the rules don't distinguish between the sources. That's the simplest way to put it.
    You use Sixth Sense to unlock the ability to delay, but it doesn't create a new instance of delay that is not affected by outside rules. You use Super-Jump to alter Jump, but Super-Jump doesn't create a new instance of rules that allows you to Jump that way if Jump is somehow restricted otherwise. You use Sensor to declare Discover with a +3 MOD, but this is not a unique Discover that somehow evades the limitations that you can only make one attempt per turn against a specific Marker.

    Camouflage puts certain restrictions on delays against the camo Marker if you delay against it. It really is that simple. The same block of rules also specify that you may not declare skills such as AP Mine as a reaction to it and using Sixth Sense doesn't remove these restrictions, either.

    This whole notion that you're "using" Sixth Sense to delay and that this forms a unique and insular way of delaying is increasingly looking weird the more I read the rules surrounding it. The only example dealing with Sixth Sense and Camouflage at the same time notes that there are two reasons why you may delay - not two ways to delay and not two skills you can use to delay and the Maakrep Tracker never in the example makes a distinction between what reason they delayed.
     
  19. Nuada Airgetlam

    Nuada Airgetlam Nazis sod off ///

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    ijw seems to specifically indicate that Camo doesn't influence the Delay ARO that was made because sb has SSL1.

    It's not about instances or anything like that. It's about compartmentalization of influence of certain rules on Delay ARO. You seem to think they are not compartmentalized and all are in effect, thoroughly and completely. ijw seems to indicate that there is in fact compartmentalization.

    How else do you explain this? Is ijw's "notion" that you're "using SSL1" looking weird as well?

    Take a step back please and give it another look, with open mind.
     
  20. QueensGambit

    QueensGambit Chickenbot herder

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    @ijw made a ruling in literally the first reply to this thread. I don't understand what's still being debated.
     
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