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Sixth Sense clarifications

Discussion in '[Archived]: N3 Rules' started by Diphoration, Feb 13, 2019.

  1. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Ok, so is your argument that if the active trooper uses move to get into base contact on an enemy trooper without sixth sense, starting in their LoF, the enemy trooper cannot declare BS attack since they're already Engaged by the time they get a chance to declare their ARO? Because that's what it looks like you're arguing, and that's not how Infinity is played.



    Ok.

    First of all, "respond" does not mean "ARO only at the exact point in the enemy's movement path that they used as their attack (especially since that point hasn't been decided at that point in the order structure). The ARO can be declared at any point along their movement path, just as if they approached from in LoF. The ARO works just like normal, except that LoF is not a requirement. You declare AROs against enemy troopers, not against specific skills they perform.

    No, but CC Attack is, so it doesn't matter that move is not an attack - you may respond to them at any point along their movement path, just as if they approached in your LoF, since LoF is not required to make the attack.



    If the enemy attacked them, that is functionally the same thing.



    There doesn't have to be - the basic rules for Infinity suppose that models can be attacked at any point along their movement path in any given order, and there's nothing in Sixth Sense which says this does not apply.



    That's functionally what it is. "Respond with a face to face roll to attacks," yes, but also "even without LoF to the attacker and regardless the facing of the user."

    Dude, there's nothing magic about CC attacks vs. BS attacks in this context. You're not required to retaliate using the same LoF and positioning that your opponent used.





    ..and that's exactly what BS attacks behave like when benefiting from the first bullet point of Sixth Sense, because at that point they don't require LoF, just like Jammers.
    I'm trying to use other rules via analogy. Sixth Sense works how Sixth Sense works i.e. it lets a trooper make AROs that normally need LoF without LoF and regardless of facing in the same order they get attacked within their ZoC.



    It doesn't need to, because that's the core Infinity rules - you can choose your LoF at any point during an enemy's movement path, just like if they run up on you from the front. Notice that "regardless of facing" bit?

    If functionally does this, by removing the *need* for LoF for these AROs.

    Your interpretation would mean that units could not ARO with BS attack to people who run up on them from the front and CC them, because they're already engaged at the point of ARO declaration.

    Or, you read "even without LoF to the attacker and without regard for facing" as "huh, look at all that blank space on the page."
     
  2. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    Exactly!
    But Sixth Sense does not remove the requirement for LOF on that attack that targets a point prior to the Engaged state.
    You may roll F2F, but you do not gain LOF during the whole order. That is not what it states.

    That is not what is stated there. It only says that you may F2F even without LOF.

    You don not gain an ARO ignoring LOF - the attack only becomes F2F even without LOF.
    That is a big difference.
     
    #62 daszul, Feb 15, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2019
  3. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    It is not an (usual) ARO, as you can only respond to attacks.
    So it does not "work just like normal, with the exception of the LOF requirement".
     
  4. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Yes it does. It also removesthe need to be facing your opponent - check the examples. It removes the requirements for LoF on *all* AROs if an enemy attacks you from your ZoC.

    You do not gain LoF when you don't have it, it removes the need for LoF.


    The "at any point in the order" isn't stated, because that's the core Infinity rules - when someone moves in your LoF, you can shoot at any point of their movement path.

    Yes you do.

    What are you even talking about here? It's not like when you dodge someone you can't see it's a normal roll, that somehow becomes FtF with Sixth Sense. It's always FtF in this context - unless you or your opponent fire a DTW, which is also allowed.
     
  5. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Sure, but once given the change to respond, you can do any ARO you want - you can attack, dodge, hack, alert, whatever.

    No, that's exactly what it does.
     
  6. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    @Arkhos94 I don't know if you've captured SSL1 + CC issues already. This probably gives you what you need.

    Edit: just checked, you have. I think my phrasing in the answers is more complete so it might be worth updating, your choice either way :)
     
  7. daszul

    daszul Well-Known Member

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    That's the point - in my opinion the frasing of the first bullet point marks an exception from that core rule.
    No usual ARO, but still a F2F.
    But that's it.
    It's up to CB to clarify this.
     
  8. daboarder

    daboarder Force One Commander
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    Nah mate,

    One person misreading rules doesnt require clarrification
     
  9. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    While it may not, I think it gets far more complex when smoke is involved, and that should definitely be in the unsolved questions thread.

    Allow me to try and sum up what @daszul is saying: "respond" is not the same as "gain a ARO".

    The problem I have with this argument is twofold. First, "respond" has no formal definition in the rules, therefore we must interpret it by analogy with other rules. And the second is that you keep talking about it in terms of F2F, but it's already been clarified (though not codified in an FAQ, unfortunately) to NOT require a F2F at all. 6SL1/2 works against a template or if you want to use one.
     
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  10. Diphoration

    Diphoration Well-Known Member
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    Great attitude. If we're having threads on this rule (and there have been others before), perhaps the rule could indeed use some clarification. Having things be clearer are always good for the game.
     
  11. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    Ok, where does it say "the aro or skill must be made at exactly the same point as the attacking model has declared their attack?"

    You say it's your opinion, but you don't provide evidence.
     
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  12. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    There are multiple people with this point of view I know, probably propagated via the Infinity community's habit of teaching people via word of mouth rather than the rulebook. This isn't even the worst misinterpretation I've had to deal with today.
     
  13. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm looking forward to the same thread on the topic of an MSV2 trooper moving into cover behind Smoke and then shooting in the second short skill.
     
  14. ijw

    ijw Ian Wood aka the Wargaming Trader. Rules & Wiki
    Infinity Rules Staff Warcor

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    For what it's worth, 'respond' is used because Sixth Sense also applies to the active trooper, not just in ARO. So don't read too much into it's use.
     
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  15. Arkhos94

    Arkhos94 Well-Known Member

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    Added to the unsolved question list, thanks for pingin me
     
  16. radka

    radka Member

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    Are the effects of the Engaged state ever applied to the order in which base to base is established? Or are they only taking effect after the order resolves? I think it's the timing of this where the argument seems to hinge. I don't think you can actually apply the effects of Engaged during the order you move into base to base because then you wouldn't be able to shoot someone approaching from the front which I don't think anyone is arguing for.

    This leads me to ask what happens when you move into base to base in the back arc of someone with sixth sense and then declare idle as your second skill, can they declare anything other than change facing/reset? If there's no attack would sixth sense trigger? And if Engaged doesn't apply until the order resolves would you get the 360 LoF? The LoF rule text uses the phrase "engaged in CC" not base to base.



    This had never occurred to me. You're saying the reactive trooper can take their shot before the MS2 troop gains cover? I've always seen it played that the MSV2 troop could claim cover since the reactive troop can't see any of the movement path and only gains an ARO when the MSV2 troop declares the shot.
     
  17. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    I'm not going to tell you this is a mistake I haven't done myself, and by lard did this wreck face, but the requirement for the reactive trooper is to be shot through smoke and this will enable that trooper to respond with a BS Attack of their own while ignoring the zero visibility zone - but where in the active trooper's movement path you're allowed to respond is never restricted.
     
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  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Re: Engage. Consider Bran and Angus.

    Angus is standing on the edge of a building.

    3. Bran jumps to a position where he is B2B with Angus but is unsupported, Bran falls.
    4. Angus declares BS Attack with his Comb
    5. Bran declares Surprise Attack, MA3 with his DA CCW.

    IiBran's declaration at 5 is legal because of "all at one time" and he enters Engaged state at Step 4, OTOH because of 'all at one time' Bran also is not-Engaged and so Angus' declaration is legal because there is a point at which Angus has LOF to the not-Engaged Bran. Yes, all at one time is not simple: basically it comes down to "I can see you* before you become Engaged then a BS Attack is legal and CC attacks are legal so long as they're declared after the Engaged state is triggered".

    * The SSL1 variation is "regardless of LOF" removes this requirement.

    N.B. per option B the above doesn't function at all.
     
  19. Hecaton

    Hecaton EI Anger Translator

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    @radka with respect to your question about what happens if someone moves into base against a Sixth Sense troop and does something other than attack, the Sixth Sense troop can still cc attack in thst case.
     
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