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Sixth sence and hacking

Discussion in 'Rules' started by Foxbringer, Jun 2, 2019.

  1. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member

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    From http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Repeater

    In the same way, they[hackers] can also react with Hacking Programs to enemy Orders declared in the Zone of Control of the Repeater as if it were their Zone of Control.

    From http://infinitythewiki.com/en/Stealth

    This Special Skill[stealth] is not effective against troopers with the Sixth Sense Special Skill...

    Is it possible for hacker with ss1 or in 4+man link to ARO hack any opponent stealth unit who stealthy moves in friendly repeaters, but outside hacker's ZoC?
     
  2. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    RAW, yes for the purposes of Hacking (so delay + BS Attack wouldn't be legal, but delay + Oblivion would).

    Literally no one plays it like that. Because in that situation your opponent can't Reset, which is widely considered to be broken.

    Link to where I discuss this with @ijw https://forum.corvusbelli.com/threa...-rules-clarifications.3372/page-2#post-151950

    The interaction between SSL1 and Reset is one of the primary reasons that Reset's requirements need to be fixed. If Reset gets fixed then I see no reason not to allow Delay through Repeaters.

    Edit: derp, reading fail. I panic'd a little on that one. Yes, Stealth doesn't work vs a trooper with Sixth sense irrespective of whether a repeater is involved or not.
     
    #2 inane.imp, Jun 2, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2019
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  3. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member

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    Is it possible(playable) not delay, but just hack stealth units?
     
  4. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, my bad. That delay question is an exploit and I didn't read your question properly.

    Stealth doesn't work vs any trooper that has Sixth Sense, this is a property of Stealth so repeaters are irrelevant to it.
     
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  5. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member

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    Thank you.
    I also remember breakwater program, which is literally can't be casted in reactive turn, but we are playing as it is.
    Same situation as reset in your example.
     
  6. Sabin76

    Sabin76 Well-Known Member

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    Interestingly enough, you can always use Breakwater against a (TO)camo'd hacker. Not that it helped my poor EVO, even though the damned ninja split burst...
     
  7. solkan

    solkan Well-Known Member

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    Can you explain what you're trying to argue?
    Because, among other things:
    1. Player A spends an order and activates Hacker S.
    2. AROs
    3. Hacker S declares hacking attack on pitiful defensive hacking device trooper X
    4. X declares ARO Breakwater

    The Breakwater program is mechanically sound. The "Defensive Hacking is a fundamentally flawed concept" thread is probably elsewhere.

    No, you can't. Because no hacker will be in (TO)Camo after attacking you. :sleuth_or_spy:
     
  8. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    Breakwater works just fine. A couple of things to remember:

    WHD/DHDs don't have any ARO hacking programs that are valid unless attacked, meaning...
    - Hacker moves into DHDs hacking area (but outside of ZoC)
    - DHD has no valid AROs, so none are provoked.
    - Hacker declares hacking attack vs DHD.
    - DHD AROs with Breakwater.

    If the enemy hacker is within ZoC, the WHD/DHD can delay as all current models with DHDs have sixth sense and WHDs grant sixth sense lvl1 within hacking area
     
  9. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member

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    Enemy hacker moves in my hacking area and I must declare ARO with my EVOhacker. It can't declare breakwater because it wasn't yet targeted.

    Enemy enters your hacking area. You still can reset or brainblast opponent with your EVO -> no hacking AROs with breakwater.
     
  10. mittenninja

    mittenninja Invincibles NCO
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    With an EVO, yes, Not with a DHD/WHD (which is where breakwater gets it's primary use). Breakwater is a very situational program when on devices other than DHD/WHD.
     
  11. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Hello,

    I think, if I haven't read wrong, it could exists another interpretation to the original question and the others implications which come after.

    A hacker with SSN1 or N2 can hack troups with stealth using a repeater because as ARO pourpouses the repeater's control zone counts as if were the ZC of the hacker, but only if the hacker use a "hacking program":


    So, if we read carefully, the hacker could declare "hacking" in the situation described in the first post, but not allowed to delay ARO, so no problems here, at least using a repeater.
     
  12. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member

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    If DHD and WHD exist in your meta and they use breakwater instead of counterstrike so be it. But in our games EVO appears more often(in special lists and missions, but he is not useless) and this programm is his only really effective defence(which can't be used because of bad wording)
     
  13. Foxbringer

    Foxbringer Well-Known Member

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    Declaring ARO in repeaters is not clearly allowed, but I think previous sentence in repeaters "Hackers in the same Army List as the Repeater, and their possible allies in multiplayer games, can hack in the Zone of Control (8-inch radius) of the Repeater as if it was their own." allows to delay hacking ARO because we can "hack as if it was our own ZoC"

    Don't like this possibility to abuse rules and this situation is rare. Think we will always allow to declare reset in such situation.(as breakwater for EVO)
     
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  14. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    Yes, of course is a stranger situation, maybe we could use even "bizarre", and most of players have no problems allowing the rival declare reset, but still, I think as redacted don't allow the hacker delay his ARO, because the rule says clearly "can hack as if was our own ZoC", not saying anything about "delay ARO".

    From SSL1

    <<In the Reactive Turn, Sixth Sense L1 allows its user to delay his ARO declaration until after the declaration of the second Short Skill of the enemy inside his Zone of Control.>>

    An enemy inside the repeaters ZoC is "as inside the hackers ZoC only to hack", so the hacker can hack but nothing more, so no delayed AROs and this interpretation avoid most of the problems between SSN1(2), repeaters and hack. I believe. Sometimes we lost us in the fringe between RAI and RAW.
     
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  15. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    It's one of the possible interpretations.

    But I find it unpersuasive.

    If I delay and ARO and the Hack I have treated my Hacking Area as if it were my ZOC, because that's what I can do in my ZOC with Hacking.
     
  16. Mahtamori

    Mahtamori Well-Known Member

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    But you have used the Repeater's ZoC as if it were your own for NON-HACKING purposes when you delayed using Sixth Sense L1. This is not allowed.
     
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  17. Urobros

    Urobros Well-Known Member

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    I know the line is really tight, but I believe this interpretation (delay ARO even for hack pourpouses isn't the same as hack as ARO only) is better as the other because leave us with less undesired interactions.

    My point here :)
     
  18. inane.imp

    inane.imp Well-Known Member

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    Fixing Reset leaves us with less undesired interactions.

    Delaying through a repeater is a *highly* desirable interaction. It's just Reset is screwy and so we avoid it.

    The problem isn't delay through a Repeater it's the fact that you can't declare Reset in response to a delay through a Repeater.
     
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